Dumais Wells and oaths of fealty

[BFG]

On 15/01/2018 at 8:13 PM, solarz said:

 

Yes, apprentices. Meanwhile, the Tower Aes Sedai became da'tsang.

 

The oath of fealty was not a punishment. Punishment does not enter into it. Rand offered the Salidar AS a way to prove that they were not a threat to him. Given what had just happened, he also wasn't about to let them run loose if they refused.

 

Remember that it wasn't the Salidar AS that rescued Rand, it was really the Asha'man and Rand's own actions. The Salidar AS just showed up after the battle *claiming* to have been trying to help. If Perrin had not been there to confirm that story, Rand would very likely have just thrown them together with the Tower AS.

 

But none of this counters my point

 

Oaths from an Aes Sedai aren't the same as oaths from none Aes Sedai. 

 

'If Zerahs eyes had been wide before they bulged now. The Rod dropped from her hands to roll across the tabletop, and she clutched her throat. A choking sound came from her suddenly gaping mouth

....

"Pevara you gave the order, so apparently you must release her, or she will suffocate right in front of us"'

 

I don't think swearing fealty will be as extreme as swearing on the oath rod, but it puts Aes Sedai in the possibility of conflicting oaths, which is  dangerous for them

 

In context, I understand why the oath is necessary for the Tower Aes sedai, but disagree with the salidar Sedai.

 

Regardless of their success, the Salidar Sedai tried to rescue Rand (my argument has nothing to do with their sucess or motives), they were accepted as allies by Perrin. There's no *claiming*, they needed to rescue Rand, because they believed they'd be destroyed if elaida succeeded in capturing rand (but as I said the motive isn't important either). Why do they need to prove they're not a threat? Their actions proved they were allies already (at least against Elaida)

 

The oath was forced because Rand had just been locked in a box and beaten daily by Aes Sedai, and the salidar sedai are Aes sedai, but, they have no responsibility for the Tower Sedai actions and did nothing to deserve the necessity of that oath. So essentially they were forced to swear because they're Aes Sedai and 'could' be dangerous

 

Also Rand was (potentially) only able to break the shield because of the attack, we never find out if he could have done it without the Aes Sedai being distracted

 

"i said you would be on an equal footing with the Tower emissaries, and for coming with 9 you will be' 

 

The whole thing/sentiment reads like a punishment to me

[Sabio]

Rand mistrusted Aes Sedai, without the oaths he never would of trusted them enough to have them do anything worth while.  The oaths were a mistake from the point of he was never going to get all Aes Sedai to take the oath.  So sooner or later he was going to have to trust them.  He was punishing them.

 

Perrin didn't have a lot of choice but to accept them, with the fight looming he needed them and it's unlikely they would of listened to him had he told them to get lost.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Sabio

[szilard]

Great topic with great comments. I agree with everyone. (Mostly with jack of shadows - seeing what happened before, this is inevitable - and BFG, they are the different sides of the same coin)

 

We don't know what really took place (especially in their mind!) except that "The first nine Aes Sedai swore fealty to the Dragon Reborn, and the world was changed forever."

 

At first reading the most disturbing thing was that Taimdread said the famous "Kneel or you will be knelt." lines - these henchmen do not know their place!, but/and after that Jordan cuts to black, so RJ lets our fantasy to run away with frenzy... but from later chapters/novels we know that basically nothing harmful happened to them. (How do you define harmful?)

 

And while I agree with solarz that their society is like that, based on homage, based on belonging to a 'team', to an 'idea', to a 'group of people' etc, I think most inhabitants of Randland do not take their oaths seriously, it seems to me that they see in them an another form/way of chance, an another path which ends of course in winning, a sort of 'When Rand closes one door, He opens a window', I know, I'm really stretching things now.

 

Returning back to AS, they just let (and they do not see themselves as inferior being compared to him) Rand sweeping over them, they are opening themselves to him, just like they open themselves to saidar ('submission', patience, 'submission', patience - if you are in control for real, you can play the 'victim' role; as for their own point of view, they do not see themselves in lower position than before, just shifting on the bench a little to left/right) 

 

As Visari says this event is a tipping point, or is just another dot in the long line of tipping points? - this is the real the Breaking of the World: Rand transforms the world (his dream) to 'his own image' in these two years - because WOT is just a big dream, ofc, not as big as Bobby Ewing's dream; I will start a thread about it, if I will not forget about it - this whole mixing people, cultures, customs, power, everything together, making a melting pot. Now, the circle is whole again.

 

On 2018. január 9. at 11:22 PM, BFG said:

For all the reasons it's wrong of elaida and egwene to demand fealty of Aes Sedai, it's wrong of Rand, it's effectively a form of compulsion if a very weak version of it and it's enforced by Taim 

 

I understand them, I understand why they do things like this, but I do not like these things at all. But they say that that's the main point of reading: experiencing another points of view, questioning things, questioning ourselves through others. Or not.

[solarz]

On 1/19/2018 at 8:18 PM, BFG said:

"i said you would be on an equal footing with the Tower emissaries, and for coming with 9 you will be' 

 

The whole thing/sentiment reads like a punishment to me

 

I interpreted this differently.

 

Rand's issue with the Aes Sedai is one of trust. Both the Tower and Salidar emissaries claim to want to honor him, but the Tower AS proved to be treacherous. Now the Salidar emissaries show up claiming he should trust them, but why should he?

 

Rand knows the two sides are enemies. What one side wants, the other side will oppose, so it's naturally for the Salidar AS to want to rescue him from the Tower AS, but that does not mean they won't betray him as well, if they thought it necessary. Aes Sedai do what they do for reasons of their own. The most obvious example is how they brought 9 AS when Rand told them to bring no more than 3 or 6 (I forget which). This shows that on their own, the Salidar AS are as untrustworthy as the Tower AS.

 

That is why Rand demanded an oath of fealty.

 

Note that an oath of fealty is different from oaths to obey someone in all things, like the oaths demanded by Pevara and co and by Therava upon Galina. I forget the wording of an oath of fealty, but I don't think it forces the AS to obey every command literally.

[Sabio]

It was punishment, they brought nine (yeah wasn't necessarily their fault that people not originally with the embassy showed up and took over).  So they were forced to kneel.  But I also see it teaching them humility.  Both sides had the opinion they needed to guide him, almost as if he was a child.   This was basicly Rand standing up and saying he runs things. 

 

Also it was a good thing for the Aes Sedai that they kneeled and Rand sent them with the wise ones.  Had he let Taim take them chances are every one of them would of been forced to the shadow.

[jack of shadows]

@szilard,

 

"mostly with jack of shadows-seeing what happened before,this is inevitable

-and bfg,they are the different sides of the same coin."

 

i couldn't have said it any better myself...lol.

 

@bfg, i intend to revisit dumai's wells,i want to refresh my memory regarding

perrin's role with the salidar aes sedai.

[Sabio]

Perrin if  I remember right was annoying running about all omg each side hates each other and demanding to Rand that he wouldn't tolerate the Aes Sedai being hurt.

[agreddon]

On 11/3/2017 at 9:15 AM, BFG said:

It's not actually the destruction, to an extent that's expected with battle, it's the 'kneel or you will be knelt'. As a line it changes everything, but the implications are disturbing

  Well, they're disturbing given who is saying it at the time (Mazrim Taim).

 

Let's remember two things:  one, the Salidar AS brought more members than were agreed to.  Also, as Rand said, he did promise that they would be on "equal footing" with the Tower AS.  If the Aes Sedai can twist around words to manipulate people, why can't he.

Second, just because the Salidar AS weren't the Tower AS didn't mean that they couldn't do him or his plans harm down the road.  This way, while not the "best', at least allows him to trust them far enough to be able to let them on his side.

[szilard]

On 2018. január 23. at 12:29 AM, jack of shadows said:

@szilard,

 

"mostly with jack of shadows-seeing what happened before,this is inevitable

-and bfg,they are the different sides of the same coin."

 

i couldn't have said it any better myself...lol.

 

[Saurabh]

It’s a combination of things. They tried to dominate him in Andor, broke his restrictions and then there were 13. For all their ‘supposed’ wisdom many AS are overconfident, know-it-alls and used to being awed by others. Moraine, Nynaeve, Cadsuane, the ones who bonded Ashaman & Unaligned sisters are the ones who show sense. 

What Rand did was a culmination of his frustration and their arrogance.

Had someone like Cadsuane or Morraine been in charge, this may not happened
Egwyne’s actions of building bridges with Wise Ones and Windfinders will improve them a long way