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paetric

New Rank System for Warders Guild

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Time for the Band ORG Leader and Warder to weigh in.

 

Personally, I am against the name change for the different ranks in the Warders. Yes, maybe ORG and Div sides are different, but using the same rank names will cause confusion. Admittedly, the Band did use the same rank structure as the Band Div did, but we have now changed our rank structure, but it uses both the Books and the RP rank structure. However, it is OUR unique structure, and you can tell which is ORG and which is Div. If you want to stand out, you have your own rank structure. So why change something when it isn't broke? The fact that people don't know about Warder ranks is more down to the fact that the Warders are hidden inside the WT. Nothing else. But don't get me started on that.

 

As for the word "Blademaster", I didn't know that it was used in the RP. That explains why the Band use it, as it fitted what the Infantry wanted to incorporate into their training. But I suspect that the Warders didn't notice the word "Blademaster", until like Ben said, the invasion of the Band. As Myst or Tay said, "Blademaster" for the Infantry is like knighting in the Cavalry, and whatever the Archers will decide upon. To me, the term "Blademaster" for the ORG side is something for the Band, and you'll have to really convince me otherwise if you want to use it here.

 

However, having said that, I don't see the need to change the rank system that the Warders currently have (i.e. algai, manshima, der'manshima, Sword Lieutenant, Sword Captain), and thus sorts out the problem of the "Blademaster" rank. The current rank system for the Warders is unique, as it appears nowhere else at DM. All it needs is some advertising, and that goes for the whole Guild. So, why fix the rank structure if it isn't broke, when in fact the greater problem is getting the Guild to be more visible in the White Tower, and thus the ranks become known?

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Well Kath and Paet said they are discussing it. I'm fairly sure they'll do what is best keeping in mind that the titles suggested are in use at other places as well. =)

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Book Based:
Blademaster - Heron-mark swords are traditionally presented to those who have earned the title of "Blademaster"- either by killing a Blademaster in a fair fight or by being granted the title by a unanimous vote of five Blademasters. These individuals are unrivaled in their mastery of the sword' date=' and are accordingly rare.

 

Book Blademaster:

- King Laman of Cairhien

- High Lord Turak (Seanchan)

- Eamon Valda (Lord Captain Commander of the Children of the Light, Defeated by Galad Demandred)

- Be'lal, Sammael, Lews Therin

- Rand (through specualtion.. )[/quote']

 

Not to beat a dead horse, 'cause that gets messy for the horse and the beater, but...

 

Arie, where did the above quote come from? It says Rand through speculation. I was wondering about the speculation part, as Rand beat a Seanchan Blademaster in single combat at the end of book 2, making him a Blademaster w/o speculation.

 

On this whole debate:

 

I helped develop the BotRH Blademaster program with other key Infantry Members: Ash, Myst, Tay, Kris and several others that I appologize for not going to look it up right now, but it is early. If the RP side of DM has a Blademaster idea in place, I'm sorry if any there think that we stole the idea. Never been there, didn't know.

 

When I joined the Warders and saw the rank system post here, my first thought was, 'well, I've earned Blademaster already.' Then I found out it was just get points and you are a master. That was kind of a let down.

 

I'm all for freedom of thought and ideas. If the Warders wish to develop a Blademaster system, I can't see anybody stopping them. I'll be disappointed, unless they develop a testing system that is other than earning points. Anybody can post in the WT for ten months and earn the required 20 for promotion and do the other required things for the rank. The system the Band's Infantry developed allows for somebody to reach the highest rank and have more points than anybody, but never be a Blademaster. It is something extra that litterally takes months (a long time in a community) to achieve. We wanted to do the title taken from the books proud and not cheapen it in anyway. We tried to base the test we give to something as close as possible from the books descriptions of testing as we could.

 

Standardizing testing across DM. I'm sorry, but the above people worked really hard on the system the Band has, and we won't be changing that. I won't anyways. That's where I put my foot down. If every Org here develops their own system and implements it, well I can't stop that, and don't know if I'd want to (creative freedom and all), but I'm going to be selfish and say that the Band won't be sharing their test methods, and we won't change what we have. HOWEVER!! If the descission comes down that the warders want to institute a system for testing, I'll help formulate ideas for a test other than earning points. I'm partial to the Band, having been a member for almost 2 years, but I'm a member here, too, and will help out if I can. This may sound like a betrayal to the Band, but I don't see it that way. In the books, not every Warder trained with the Warders, and not every person that trains with the Warders becomes a Warder. Nor is every Warder a Blademaster. Therefore, I don't think every Warder that attains the highest rank should be a Blademaster. There should be a seperate test, and it should be hard. It should show dedication to DM, to the WT Org, and to the Warders. That is the basis of the Infantry's testing (a part of it). If the Warders decide to do it, I'd like a say in the way it is done.

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i migth have missed some points and not sure i wanna really get into it but some things did catch my attention...and maybe i overlooked some things said and say again in which case i apologise...tried to catch the main things when reading through

 

comparing blademaster to sitter warder etc is not really acurate, in the rp and in the books some titles is specific to group..an Aes Sedai belongs in the white tower even as late as in the last books it is explained to the new young amerlyn that the oath makes an aes sedai in the new age...all other channelers have got new names (sort of difrent from AoL) hence the issue of say the aiel having Aes Sedai or sitters would be unnatural, and it could be understood that wt object cause it is a wt specific...same way go with the aiel and seanchean specific titles, along with any other org...div...group...

 

saying the books aint relevant becomes a litle backward on a community based of (thoug not limited to) the books

 

blademaster is not a band nor specific internal group rank its a general rank like a farmer, a travler, a merchant...there is aiel smiths, seanchean smiths, randlander smiths...etc as such...blademaster is such a general elite rank

 

and though peoples can adapt and learn new things, new persons coming around will more easily recognise words from the book

 

so my opinion is quite on the counterary that the ranks and such should aim towards the books where posible...to give the feel and atmoshere of the books we all love and who in most cases was the cause of coming here in the first place

 

you cant compare words like channeler, bladmaster, smith, farmer with those like aes sedai, wise one, first weaver

 

cause they are two difrent group of words...and no there shouldnt be a one way to earn it as such rather a specific group system internaly in the groups its natural to earn such a rank that maybe been preaproved by the admin

 

that works well in the rp so dont see why not in the org and the mather is more easily setled...we got quotas...all the divs can make their own ways for their members to earn ranks like blademaster...the warders have more they also created a grandmaster

 

but all figthing divs/sldier like divs can have blademasters that means

 

aiels can (excluding wise ones)

warders

white tower cant

sg can (excluding channelers)

band can

i think bt can in a very few causes

freelanders

 

etc

 

sorry i understand working on things but in this specific case a major very imoprtant word was chosen and i think there must be understanding for that it can be expected others would like the use of it as well...

 

also to my awareness it doesnt have to come from band...i hardly peeked my nose in on the band stuff when we was there and sertainly didnt have time to read details and look around

 

however the word had come up in an msn convoe long before that where we discussed potential ranks as one who felt natural to adopt in one way or other

 

if we all are gonna go mine mine mine then i think the org and friendships would split more apart...most sertainly warders could make a fuss about claiming sole rigth to the bond between aes sedai and warders then ;)

 

in the end of the day we are here to have fun and the one dont limit the other...nor do i have belif in the confusion we managed for years down in the rp having bladmasters of difrent sort why should it be any difrent up here?

 

I'm a blademaster...i try now to specify things in my sig i sertainly didnt when i started up here...and due to many memberships here and there migth end up at lack of space never felt it was a problem

 

so where is the difrence in problem of specifying

 

DRPSW Tower Guard Blademaster

DRPSW Assasin Blademaster

 

and BotRH org Blademaster

and Warders guild Blademaster

or CoL group Blademaster

 

should i be more blind to not see the obvious difrence

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Just to clear a few things up.

 

When the guild talked about changing the rank system we mentioned changing Sword Lt to Blademaster. This may be where some of the confusion is coming from. That idea has been scraped. So no worries that the title Blademaster is something handed out.

 

What I was envisioning for the title sounds a lot like what the Band appears to be using. I'd be interested in putting my proposal together to Kath for that title to be in line with what the Band is using.

 

I don't really see this as a Org specific issue. This is something that can be used to help tie different orgs together.

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oo before i forget (as i tend to if i dont tell someone when i got an idea)

 

for puting togheter maybe the "sparing/figthing" groups orgs as part of system could have tournaments...where the tasks and contests was based of some of their things

 

involving quizes, discusions etc that we get to share the activeties we normaly are about in a friendly contest situation to have fun and show off to eachother ;)

 

to do what *points to P.'s post* he said

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Just to clear everything up I need to say that at the moment we are still using Algai, Manshima and der'manshima. The Sword Lts are still called Sword Lts and not Blademaster.

 

Sorry for any confusion!

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But I suspect that the Warders didn't notice the word "Blademaster"' date=' until like Ben said, the invasion of the Band. [/quote']

 

No, I didn't notice that _you_ had Blademasters until the invasion. Not to try and "pull rank" or anything, but I'd been handing out the Blademaster rank and title to Warders before I suspect any of the current Banders even knew what Dragonmount was. We didn't "steal" the idea from you, in any fashion.

 

As for the need to change the ranks - I still think Old Tongue rank names are pretentious. *grins* Just my opinion.

 

And though I know Paetric already cleared this up, it wouldn't be simply a case of "earn points and become a Blademaster," since one might notice that the Blademaster rank would be replacing Sword Lt, which is essentially head of the Disciplines, a position requiring alot of work and effort for the Org, and one only a few people could earn at any time.

 

But yeah, essentially I'd agree with Paetric (and Taymist, after our discussion last night) that it'd be better to save the Blademaster rank for something more specialized. And I'm sure we'd be happy to share the requirements so that everyone can see them and know what it's worth, but I'm not going to be okay with abandoning the title simply because someone else is using it.

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We used Blademaster as the top level rank for the Warders in 2003, when they were first incorporated into the WT Org. We changed it to der'Manshima, the rank we use currently. Which incidently, means "Master of Blades" in the Old Tongue.

 

So you stole it from us. =)

 

 

Anything that appears in the books is going to pop up when we're determining ranks. People will have good ideas independently of each other. It's no big deal. This weekend, I discovered another WoT site using Manshima as a title for their Warder aspirants. I've never talked to anyone from that site and I don't think any of us are members. It happens. Everyone running a WoT community online walks a fine line between being as unique as possible and straying so far from the books that no one recognizes what they are doing.

 

That said, ya'll are jumping at shadows. Paetric already said that we discussed it and discarded the idea, mainly because we know the Band is using it and it's a highly valued rank in that Org. We didn't want to offend those members and we'll be going in a different direction, if we do decide to change the ranks.

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to be honest, blademaster should not be restricted to an org or division..

 

Handle it like they do in the books. When you have the skill level you get tested and when you pass you get the title or in the case of Galad when he wont the fight he got the heron marked sword because he bested a blademaster.

 

Blademaster should be available to any weapons fighter.

 

Restricting it to a title for an org diminishes it somewhat. Cannot a warder earn the title without having to join the band? Can a blademaster not belong to the band.

 

just my 2 cents..make it available for all fighter types, when testing have judges from different orgs. treat it as a society within dm not restricted to an org. it would get more prestigious that way i beleive.

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I was gonna' drop this but there is one last thing I would like to point out:

 

My (and Tay's) first post in this thread wasn't in any way or form an offensive or deffensive post. They were 'requests' to take the Infantry situation into account, to which Kath responded you were and Tay voiced her gratitude. That was it for us at that point.

 

But then others started voicing their opinions (which they have every right to, don't get me wrong on this) and thàt started the whole discussion following. We only responded to those opinions with our own and out of worry about the wild leaps that were suddenly being put forth.

 

That's it for me, im out of this discussion.

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What Myst said. *nods*

 

My intention was to air a concern not start an arguement. I wasn't suggesting anyone was "stealing" an idea as such either.

 

Thanks for the chat last night Ben, it cleared a few points up and thanks Kath & Paet for your input, that's reassuring. :)

 

I'm not responding to anyone else as I believe what was said has been badly twisted and everyone is getting their backs up for no reason.

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*Puts his back down, or at least tries*

 

Seems to have gotten stuck on the hook that I had put it up on in the first place.

 

*Pulls really hard, and yanks it down with a cry of pain*

 

Seems I've pulled my back out, folks.

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well, i did not mean to get my little sister and my soon to be sister all upset at me. I was just trying to point out that a blademaster skill (heron marked sword) was a society of itself. I know DM is like 180 degrees opposite of the books but why could a warder not earn a heron marked sword by a judging of his peers (society) across all orgs.

 

i did not mean to upset tay and myst. i have a huge heartache now so i will back out of this discussion and go hide behind my Aes Sedai.

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It would be fantastic for the term "Blademaster" to be used across DM, but sadly, somewhere along the line, it will cause anger and annoyance for some ORG, and I suspect that will be the Band as we are the ones currently using the term "Blademaster", and currently have a system in place to earn that rank. To me, anyway, it will look like the other ORGs are tagging along to something we have made to make us appear different to the rest of the ORGs here. As a result of the Band putting together a system for our Blademaster programme, I, on my ORG's behalf, will be very defensive and skeptical about other ORGs using such an idea.

 

And just a quick reminder, this method of testing is something that all three Regiments of the Band use to earn a special rank. I will be more than happy to help the Guild sort something out, but I will be defensive and say 'no' should I see things similar to what the Band has. Each ORG should have something different to offer the members of this community, not the same thing but with different names.

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Personally I am in no way upset or offended and I never saw this as a full out argument. Seriously ya'll don't wanna see me mad, I will lay a smack down and do some hair pulling. :wink: Fights as DM usually involved flaming and name calling, this was a discussion. Yes a discussion! :D *snuggles Kath* :wink:

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The "Blademaster" programme has different disguises in the Band, but they all run or will run under a similar system of testing to earn that title.

 

In the Infantry, where it is called the Blademaster programme, it has been up and running since the beginning of January.

 

In the Cavalry, where it is called the Knighting programme, it has been running nearly a year, with there being between 10 and 20 Knights.

 

The Archers currently don't have a programme, though one is being drawn up, but it will offer different things to the Infantry and Cavalry as a counter to what they do for new members once they have finished our Raw Recruit Training Schedule.

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So it isn't like this is something that is long standing and established. No one outside the band knows about it so it isn't like what I have in mind is or would be construed as "stealing" the bands idea.

 

The principle behind earning the right to be named Blademaster isn't something that is unique to any one group. This is something that the Orgs can work on together to develop into something benefitting the aura associated with Blademaster in the books.

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Considering the Band has been an ORG for just over 2 years, the knighting system (which is the equivalent of the Blademaster testing and whatever the Archers do) has been around for about half of that time, so yes, it has been around a long time in terms of the Band. As for DM, probably not, but there again, no-one seems to have mentioned that any other ORG has used such a system as testing (i.e. various tasks to complete certain levels before reaching the final task to earn the right to be knighted/called a blademaster) before.

 

As I said before, it would be lovely to have the term "blademaster" used across DM, but it is going to cause a lot of anger and dissatisfaction somewhere along the line, and that is probably going to come from the Band, and I am going to stand behind my ORG as a result. And as I said, making it a DM-wide thing, it will feel like something the Band has worked hard to create is being used by others who are latching on to our idea and system.

 

So basically, I'm going to fight this all the way as I will defend my ORG (as ORG Leader) and what we have set up.

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There's gonna be people unhappy no matter what the decision. So people better start getting ready to "suck it up, Princess."

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Fight this? What are you going to fight?

 

Are you saying that you are going to fight to stop me from implimenting something that will be a benefit not only to the Warders Guild but to DM as a whole?

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