Double Bonding

[LapisPharaoh]

I was reading aMoL and I wondered what happens when two channelers of the same gender bond each other.

I mean, we get an example with Androl and Pevara as to what would happen if an AS and an AM bonded each other. And we also know that the AS bond and the AM bond differ in some ways. So my question is, what would happen of an AS bonded another AS or an AM bonded another AM.

I don't know if this topic has been discussed before as I cannot find the tread.

[BFG]

We know that part of it would probably include emotion amplification through Birgette/Elayne warder bond

 

Beyond that? :) fun thoughts

[BFG]

Actually it would probably depend on the purpose of the bond

 

Warders gain strength at the expense onmf dying with their Aes Sedai. Harder to judge if there are physical benefits for the AS.

 

The Ashaman bond seems to include an element of compulsion

 

If the f/f bond m/m bond is between equals they may adapt the Aiel sister bond

[jack of shadows]

in my opinion,the compulsion element was intentional.

[BFG]

in my opinion,the compulsion element was intentional.

I think initially it was subconsciously done. By the time the Aes Sedai were bonded it was intentional though

 

I also think that some Aes Sedai include the potential for compulsion in their bonds but I don't know if that's hearsay or something I can back up

[Kesiera_Sedai]

 

in my opinion,the compulsion element was intentional.

I think initially it was subconsciously done. By the time the Aes Sedai were bonded it was intentional though

 

I also think that some Aes Sedai include the potential for compulsion in their bonds but I don't know if that's hearsay or something I can back up

They do, but some more than others...Alanna was unable to compel Rand, but apparently Romanda knows how to do it. She mentioned as much to Egwene and was forbidden to do it.

Just as a side note, for some reason when Logain bonded Toveine it gave her an orgasm. He apologized and said that's the only way he knew how to do it.

I think though same-sex double bonding would only amplify the telepathy and sharing of skills... Remember though that Birgitte getting drunk made Elayne drunk too...She even had a hangover.

It's my opinion that same-sex double bonding would probably be like being permanently linked.

[jack of shadows]

trying to compel rand was like trying to harness a category 5 hurricane,

serves alanna right to be gutted like a pig by moridin,what she did to rand

was a million times worse than rape in my book.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

I agree, but I feel like it hadn't happened, Rand may not have been able to fulfill his destiny. Remember, there were several times when his bond with Alanna was the only way they knew how to find him. It was wrong, but he himself admitted in the end that if he hadn't been so distrustful of the Aes Sedai who were actually trying to help him, things would been easier...The White Tower was founded in part to await his return, and there were many living Aes Sedai who did do this...The fate of the world rested in his hands, and he was stubbornly running away from those who'd spent decades, even centuries waiting for him. I think if he'd responded the way Androl did, things would've been alot different. He was angry with Alanna, but he didn't lose her trust. In fact, afterhe was kidnapped, she was the only one he'd allow to touch him when he was in trouble. Many Aes Sedai did equate an involuntary bonding with rape. I feel that's an exaggeration, however I do consider it to be an invasion of privacy on an unimaginable level. Would you be willing to tie your life or death to someone that way? Somehow I get the feeling that when two channelers are bonded, one of them dying might kill them both?

[jack of shadows]

@kesiera,

"he was angry with alanna,but he didn't lose her trust..."

you got it the other way round,it's irrelevant whether rand did or didn't lose

alanna's trust,the real question is did rand trust her?let me take this question

one step further,did rand trust any aes sedai?the answer is of course NO he

didn't trust any of them including alanna,he tolerated her exsistence to some

degree,after all,they were bonded and the bond is a two way connection so

he knew that she is not going to stab him in the back literally or figuratively,

but trust her? hell no.

to be honest,alanna's importance and positive contributions to rand were

negligible comparing to the risk she put him inside the pit of doom.

even after so many years,alanna's involuntary bonding still infuriates me.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

@kesiera,

"he was angry with alanna,but he didn't lose her trust..."

you got it the other way round,it's irrelevant whether rand did or didn't lose

alanna's trust,the real question is did rand trust her?let me take this question

one step further,did rand trust any aes sedai?the answer is of course NO he

didn't trust any of them including alanna,he tolerated her exsistence to some

degree,after all,they were bonded and the bond is a two way connection so

he knew that she is not going to stab him in the back literally or figuratively,

but trust her? hell no.

to be honest,alanna's importance and positive contributions to rand were

negligible comparing to the risk she put him inside the pit of doom.

even after so many years,alanna's involuntary bonding still infuriates me.

Sorry, I misstated I meant she didn't lose his trust... Remember other than Nynaeve and Cadsuane, he wouldnt let any other Aes Sedai touch him...Part of the problem, in my opinion is that him needing their help didn't require him to trust them., But he got that part mixed up, even though Moiraine explicitly told him not to trust any woman who called herself Aes Sedai (other than the girls), and he apparently forgot that straightaway, as soon as he got the letter from Alviarin. I never understood that, when he knew that the girls were Team Rebel. He couldn't even bring himself to dispatch Lanfear, even though she tried to kill Aviendha and Egwene

[Sabio]

trying to compel rand was like trying to harness a category 5 hurricane,

serves alanna right to be gutted like a pig by moridin,what she did to rand

was a million times worse than rape in my book.

 

Not sure I would go that far, since her bonding allowed the Aes Sedai to find him and prophecy be fulfilled about the Aes Sedai bending knee to the forgotten sign.  It was wrong, but if you read the companion. it was Verin who actually manipulated her to do it (who also set her up to be captured), taking advatage to her emotional state after losing a warder.  It explains Verin wanted a string attached to Rand, and Alanna could be manipulated to being that string, so a lot of the hate should be directed at Verin.  So saying she deserves to be gutted like a fish is a bit extreme.

[LapisPharaoh]

Well, Verin was Black even if she was a spy. Maybe someone higher up than her forced her to do it so they may have a link to Rand (even though I doubt it). Maybe Verin tried to warn Alanna but she got captured anyway (like Mat and Caemlyn)

 

Edit: It doesn't matter what Alanna did, it all worked out well in the end. Maybe Verin, being a Brown, discovered a way to Release the Bond (something not shown before in the books) and taught it to Alanna in the Letter...?

[Kesiera_Sedai]

 

trying to compel rand was like trying to harness a category 5 hurricane,

serves alanna right to be gutted like a pig by moridin,what she did to rand

was a million times worse than rape in my book.

Not sure I would go that far, since her bonding allowed the Aes Sedai to find him and prophecy be fulfilled about the Aes Sedai bending knee to the forgotten sign. It was wrong, but if you read the companion. it was Verin who actually manipulated her to do it (who also set her up to be captured), taking advatage to her emotional state after losing a warder. It explains Verin wanted a string attached to Rand, and Alanna could be manipulated to being that string, so a lot of the hate should be directed at Verin. So saying she deserves to be gutted like a fish is a bit extreme.

 

Yes, just like in real life, sometimes bad things happen to us, but good comes out of it...So do u then hate the person who put u in the situation in the first place?

 

The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills...

[Sabio]

Well, Verin was Black even if she was a spy. Maybe someone higher up than her forced her to do it so they may have a link to Rand (even though I doubt it). Maybe Verin tried to warn Alanna but she got captured anyway (like Mat and Caemlyn)

 

Edit: It doesn't matter what Alanna did, it all worked out well in the end. Maybe Verin, being a Brown, discovered a way to Release the Bond (something not shown before in the books) and taught it to Alanna in the Letter...?

 

Possible but for me unlikely, Verin wrote the letter to Alanna that sent her to the north, where she was captured.  My guess is Moridin ordered her to so he could set the trap.  Since they were also very careful not to do anything to Alanna that might alert Rand or allow her to release the bond.  We know releasing the Bond was known, since Egwene did it before she died.  Something like would have to be known since if an Aes Sedai was slowly dying, she would want to save her warden the pain of her death. 

 

As for why, my hunch is Verin was worried about Rand going everywhere and no one knowing how to find him or if he was ok.  We see time and again her working to aid Rand seeing the falme prophecy fulfilled, with using compulsion on the captives, and the willingness to kill Cas.  Seem unlikely she would of been ordered to simply because no one would of known if she ever would of had the chance.  Seems more that the right opportunity presented itself with Alanna's state of mind so she took it.  The companion says "using Alanna provided Verin with a little distance and perhaps a little safety."  SInce Verin would know anyone bonded to Rand would be a target, she wouldn't want people coming after her.  So she got Alanna to do it, and Alanna took the repercussions such as being shunned by Aes Sedai and even losing her station granted to her by how strong she was in the power, and Alanna became the target.

[Orderofolde]

 

in my opinion,the compulsion element was intentional.

I think initially it was subconsciously done. By the time the Aes Sedai were bonded it was intentional though

 

I also think that some Aes Sedai include the potential for compulsion in their bonds but I don't know if that's hearsay or something I can back up

 

It was described as "Compelling" a warder.  Something that was also mentioned was that the bonded Ashamen could not be compelled because of their OP connection.

[Sabio]

 

 

in my opinion,the compulsion element was intentional.

I think initially it was subconsciously done. By the time the Aes Sedai were bonded it was intentional though

 

I also think that some Aes Sedai include the potential for compulsion in their bonds but I don't know if that's hearsay or something I can back up

 

It was described as "Compelling" a warder.  Something that was also mentioned was that the bonded Ashamen could not be compelled because of their OP connection.

 

 

Not heresy, when the embassy arrived in Caemlyn, one the sisters I believed asked Alanna, why she didn't use the bond to compel Rand.

[jack of shadows]

@sabio,

"so saying she deserves to be gutted like a fish is a bit extreme.'

sorry if that offends your delicate sensibilities,but i stand by what i wrote

in my previous post,alanna's force bonding was inexcusable,completely

beyond the pale,and no,i am not going to shift my anger towards verin,she

didn't bond him(of course not,she didn't dare,even lanfear didn't dare to

bond rand),it was "poor" and "distraught" alanna who raped rand's mind.

let me ask you this:why didn't alanna release the bond later?she had time

enough to clear her head and get her emotions under control,she also

knew that she couldn't control,compel or entice rand to do her bidding,

yet,she didn't release him,why?

so please,don't expect me to show alanna sympathy,or say,oh well,all's

well that ends well so let's forgive "poor" alanna.

by the way,i never said anything about a fish LOL.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

@sabio,

"so saying she deserves to be gutted like a fish is a bit extreme.'

sorry if that offends your delicate sensibilities,but i stand by what i wrote

in my previous post,alanna's force bonding was inexcusable,completely

beyond the pale,and no,i am not going to shift my anger towards verin,she

didn't bond him(of course not,she didn't dare,even lanfear didn't dare to

bond rand),it was "poor" and "distraught" alanna who raped rand's mind.

let me ask you this:why didn't alanna release the bond later?she had time

enough to clear her head and get her emotions under control,she also

knew that she couldn't control,compel or entice rand to do her bidding,

yet,she didn't release him,why?

so please,don't expect me to show alanna sympathy,or say,oh well,all's

well that ends well so let's forgive "poor" alanna.

by the way,i never said anything about a fish LOL.

What she did was wrong, yes, but if she hadn't, Elaida's plan would've worked because no one would've known where to find hi when he was kidnapped...Which would've led to him being taken to the Tower, where I'm sure he would've been welcomed by Alviarin and Mesaana....I think being involuntarily bonded to Alanna was definitely the lesser of the 2 evils

[Sabio]

Then where is your anger to verin who manipulated the whole bonding?  Who took advantage of Alanna after her warder died to have a string attached to Rand?   You can't hate one with out the other, because without Verin the bonding never would of occurred. As I posted in my other post ""using Alanna provided Verin with a little distance and perhaps a little safety."  Had Verin of done it herself it would of been her all the Aes Sedai would of been angry at, it would of been her that would of been a target.  Alanna said why she wouldn't simply release the bond, Rand could of forced her to, yet he never did.  Verin is the one who made it happen.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Then where is your anger to verin who manipulated the whole bonding? Who took advantage of Alanna after her warder died to have a string attached to Rand? You can't hate one with out the other, because without Verin the bonding never would of occurred. As I posted in my other post ""using Alanna provided Verin with a little distance and perhaps a little safety." Had Verin of done it herself it would of been her all the Aes Sedai would of been angry at, it would of been her that would of been a target. Alanna said why she wouldn't simply release the bond, Rand could of forced her to, yet he never did. Verin is the one who made it happen.

 

I'm not angry at either one of them simply because it's not like there was not personal risk involved for either of them, and it wasn't done for selfish reasons. The fate of their entire space/time continuum was Rand's hands...Verin herself spent 70 years as an undercover member of the Black Ajah, then took her own life just to get around her Oaths to the DO...It's like Egwene's spirit told Rand when they were outside the Pattern...let others have their heroic moment too...Rand dying before The Last Battle would've made all their sacrifices meaningless. Rand was kinda lost, and looked to the Prophecies to tell him what to do, instead of just trusting his instincts..He even admitted to Egwene after he and LTT became one that his lack of trust in those who genuinely tried to help make the process alot harder than it had to be...

 

What Alanna did was wrong, but he wasn't harmed... you must remember the Warder bond gives a man the strength to endure hardships that would break lesser men, and Alanna did tell him that what she did was the opposite of harming him. I wonder if he would've accepted it if he been asked first.

[Sabio]

Sorry I meant that to be directed at jack and his seeming to forgive and ignore Verins role and put al the blame on Alanna..  Even though Verin manipulated someone who was suffering the loss of her warder.

[jack of shadows]

@kesiera,

"elaida plan would've worked because no one would've known where to

find him when he was kidnapped..."

*SIGH* you have a tendency to over-inflate alanna's importance,unfortunately,

ignoring facts doesn't make them go away,so let me remind you what really 

transpired before the battle of dumai's wells.

four groups who acted(mostly) independently,were involved with rand's rescue:

1.the first and biggest group,ie.perrin,loial,wolves(later),aiel,cairhienin and mayene

winged guards left cairhien a week after rand was kidnapped and knew exactly where

 rand was because perrin was constantly communicating with the wolves.

2,the second group,the salidar embassy including alanna,was on the way from caemlyn

to cairhien to meet rand when he was kidnapped,on their way to cairhien,the aes

sedai commandeered the third group,the two rivers men who came originally with

perrin to caemlyn,incidentally,the salidar embassy had no idea that rand was kidnapped,

they only knew that he is hurt(courtesy of weepy alanna) and moving north.

the three groups,met two weeks after rand was kidnapped,and two days before the battle.

3.the fourth group,mazrim taim and the asha'man,arrived two days later,(completely)

independently,at dumai's wells.

was alanna's contribution essential?hardly! it was taim and the asha'man who saved the day.

did she distinguish herself before or during the battle?again,hardly,the only thing she did was

to weep and say that rand is hurt.

count me unimpressed.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

@kesiera,

"elaida plan would've worked because no one would've known where to

find him when he was kidnapped..."

*SIGH* you have a tendency to over-inflate alanna's importance,unfortunately,

ignoring facts doesn't make them go away,so let me remind you what really

happened before the battle of dumai's wells.

four groups who acted(mostly) independently,were involved with rand's rescue:

1.the first and biggest group,ie.perrin,loial,wolves(later),aiel,cairhienin and mayene

winged guards left cairhien a week after rand was kidnapped and knew exactly where

rand was because perrin was constantly communicating with the wolves.

2,the second group,the salidar embassy including alanna,was of the way from caemlyn

to cairhien to meet rand when he was kidnapped,on their way to cairhien,the aes

sedai commandeered the third group,the two rivers men who came originally with

perrin to caemlyn,incidentally,the salidar embassy had no idea that rand was kidnapped,

they only knew that he is hurt(courtesy of weepy alanna) and moving north.

the three groups,met two weeks after rand was kidnapped,and two days before the battle.

3.the fourth group,mazrim taim and the asha'man,arrived two days later,(completely)

independently,at dumai's wells.

was alanna's contribution essential?hardly! it was taim and the asha'man who saved the day.

did she distinguish herself before or during the battle?again,hardly,the only thing she did was

to weep and say that rand is hurt.

count me unimpressed.

I don't inflate her importance... Actually, aside from her connection to Rand, I feel like she wasn't very important at all, other than her contribution to Perrin's campaign in the Two Rivers. Verin was a much more important character. ..She was very mysterious, and some of her actions were turning points in the book, such as supplying Egwene with the dream ter'angreal and accompanying notes from the last Dreamer in the Tower, and committed suicide to real her connection to the Black Ajah and pass along her 70 years of notes. I've always felt that she did all of this because of the Aes Sedai, especially Moiraine, saw from the beginning that Egwene had the potential to be a great Amrylin, and because of that, they, just like the leaders in Salidar wanted to control her and even though she was Black Ajah, she wasn't a Darkfriend. Alanna? Just one more Aes Sedai trying to play her role, or at least what she thought should be her role. I wonder if Rand would've lasted through his ordeals in the box, having his hand burned off, and dealing with the intolerable wounds in his side if it hadn't been for the bond. Elayne and/or Aviendha should've been the ones to hold the bond, or even Nynaeve, but they were all too busy with their own adventures to be of use.

[LapisPharaoh]

Wow, I really didn't think this would turn into a bashing Alanna thread...

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Wow, I really didn't think this would turn into a bashing Alanna thread...

 

Actually, I like Alanna...I'd would be a Green myself if I were Aes Sedai. I've always thought, some of the Ajah felt that the real world as chess pieces. Green live their lives (they marry, and some even have children). But living your live includes making mistakes. .