"How Feminism Hurts Men"

[Elgee]

Yesterday somebody on Facebook told me that feminism elevates women at the expense of men, that its agenda to validate women emasculates us guys.

He was right.

For men, the rise of feminism has relegated us to second-class status. Inequality and discrimination have become part of our everyday lives.

Because of feminism, men can no longer walk down the street without fear of being catcalled, harassed, or even sexually assaulted by women. When he is  assaulted, the man is blamed – the way he dressed he was “asking for it”.

Because of feminism, there are no major Christian conferences about how to act like men,  where thousands of men can celebrate their manliness and Jesus (and perhaps poke fun at female stereotypes).

Because of feminism, church stages and spotlights are often dominated by women. Men are encouraged to just serve in the nursery or kitchen. Sometimes men are even told to stay silent in church.

Because of feminism, women make more money than man in the same jobs.

Because of feminism, it’s hard to find a movie with a heroic male lead anymore. Most blockbusters feature a brave woman who saves the world and gets a token man as a trophy for her accomplishments.

Because of feminism, women’s professional sports are a massively profitable enterprise where women are globally idolized. Men only appear briefly, before commercial breaks, when they’re objectified for their bodies.

Because of feminism, all birth control is covered for women without question or debate, while men have to fight to get insurance companies to pay for their Viagra prescriptions. When men do speak up about this, leaders of the “family friendly” right wing labels them “sluts” and “whores”.

Because of feminism, the male body is constantly under public scrutiny. If a man appears topless on TV, it’s a national scandal resulting in huge fines and boycotts. Bloggers regularly write about how we need to be more mindful of the ways our clothing choices tempt women to sin. Satirists insist that shorts “aren’t really pants” and then men should cover up because “nobody wants to see that”.

Because of feminism, men are not represented in the White House, and women hold over 80% of the seats in Congress. When a man runs for office, his physical appearance and clothing choices are discussed almost as much as his policies and ideas.

Because of feminism, men must fight for a voice in the public sphere. In issues of theology, politics, science, and philosophy, the female perspective is often considered default, normal, and unbiased. Male perspectives are dismissed for being too subjective or too emotional. When we speak up, we are often dismissed as angry, rebellious, subversive, or dangerous.

But stay strong, bros.

One day we’ll all be equal.

Whatever you do, don’t read Jesus Feminist. It’s full of ideas that will continue to oppress and harm men — ideas such as “women are people too” and “the dignity of and rights of women are as important as those of men”.

 

 

 

Barm posted that on FB, and I thought it was worth repeating here. It certainly makes you think, doesn't it? In most countries we've come a long way, but still have a long way to go. In some countries, women are still being subjected to the most horrific degradation, humiliation, torture, abuse and subjugation.

[Ryrin]

There are lots of relevant points addressed in this article but there is one that I have been pondering.

 

Women's sexuality, control and domination.

 

Throughout the world we have seen patriarchal cultures attempt to control women's sexuality by strict control of interactions with males, covering females physically, placing a high value on virginity, punishing women severely for adultery, allowing sexual assault as a punishment for crimes (real and imagined), "corrective rape" (an attempt to change a lesbian's sexual orientation) as well as placing responsibility on women for sexual assault by her dress or actions. Within this control and domination we also have exploitation such as forcing 9 year old girls into marriage.

 

And it's occurring not just in fundamentalist cultures.  This is an excerpt from an article online "askmen-Become a Better Man."

 

http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_100/103_dating_advice.html

 

'Whether or not men know it (or want to admit it), women are in complete control of the sexual arena. They know that a woman's physical appearance is an irresistible drug to men. They know that lust can temporarily stun a man's ability to reason. They know men want sex and will do anything — even act contrary to their inherent masculine natures — to get it."

 

 

If I am going in a direction you did not intend by posting this topic, I will gladly remark on other areas of women's oppression.

[Elgee]

You're cool, Ry :)

[Ryrin]

Thank you.  

 

i think it will be difficult to make progress in other areas, such as employment, education and equal pay when women still lack basic control over their own bodies.

[michellem]

I love this, Mama LG! I'm a feminist, but I rarely dare to say so out loud, because so many people (both women and men, and people who call themselves feminists) have no idea what feminish actually means. That text is a very good example of why I'm a feminist. I also love this picture I'm attaching.

 

 

Ry, that article made me sad. It makes me very, very sad, and angry, to see men (and women) tell men that they are beast with no self-control and all that drives them is the need for sex. I think it's horribly degrading to men, and I think we create a culture that's just like that because of these notions. I know alot of guys, and I can't think of a single one that can't control his libido when he sees a girl in a short skirt or feels like a relationship is only an excuse to have sex on a regular basis.

 

When it comes to the sexual part of it, it's both a matter of changing some guys views about females worth, but also society's notions about "how to be a man" and what a "proper" man does.

 

And I'll stop there because this is a subject I could go on about forever

[Nolder]

 

Yesterday somebody on Facebook told me that feminism elevates women at the expense of men, that its agenda to validate women emasculates us guys.

Well if you look at organizations such as NOW it's actually pretty easy to come to the conclusion that feminism is not in fact about "equality" but about giving women a higher status. The clearest example of this is how it is against the presumption of joint custody. Being the largest feminist organization in America (and the world?) I'm not really sure what other view of feminism people get have.

 

For men, the rise of feminism has relegated us to second-class status. Inequality and discrimination have become part of our everyday lives.

I have a picture for this.

I'm not saying all of that is the fault of feminism or that feminism even necessarily contributes to these problems but the idea that men as a whole lead privileged lives is a false one and always has been.

 

Because of feminism, men can no longer walk down the street without fear of being catcalled, harassed, or even sexually assaulted by women. When he is  assaulted, the man is blamed – the way he dressed he was “asking for it”.

I'm still not sure I believe that women, as a whole, get catcalled on a regular basis.

The only people I ever hear say this are feminists. I'll take it at face value I guess but it's hard to imagine this happens at all let alone so often.

 

As for being harassed and sexually assaulted.

What constitutes harassment and even sexual assault has been blurred over time.

For example asking your girlfriend for sex and then saying "please" if she says no would be sexual assault if not rape because you "coerced" her.

On the other hand witholding sex from your wife is considered a form of abuse.

 

Because of feminism, women make more money than man in the same jobs.

This is a myth. Women, on average and as a whole, make less money than men.

What they are doing is just combining all salaries of all men and all women and finding the average.

This does not take into account things like hours worked, level of education, prior experience or years on the job, or the differences between different fields (ie psychologist compared to engineer). There is no comparing of apples to apples in this data which is why it's misleading. When you take all the different variables into account the gap between women's and men's pay shrinks to almost nothing.

 

This means that it is largely women's choices that lead to lower pay on average.

Women tend to major in areas that don't pay as well in college such as psychology compared to say engineering.

And when entering the workforce women often take jobs which have more side benefits as opposed to pay like better medical, flexible hours, no travelling, etc. And of course when women get pregnant they take time off, losing them experience compared to a man who continues to work in the same position. Why did the man get a promotion even though the man and woman started at the same time? That's why.

 

Many women also just flat out drop out of the work force entirely after having a baby because they want to raise it an be close to it while the child is young. So women who do this and then enter the workforce again later are going to start back where they were while their male counterparts again have been working this whole time and gained years of experience in the meantime. This is why people that start in the same position don't necessarily end up in the same places.

 

What really puts the lie to the myth though is the fact that when women make the right choices like going into a field that pays well, never marrying or having children, working the long hours and being willing to travel, etc they often make MORE money than their male counterparts. I believe the highest disparity was in Atlanta where those women were outearning their male counterparts by ~20%.

 

Because of feminism, it’s hard to find a movie with a heroic male lead anymore. Most blockbusters feature a brave woman who saves the world and gets a token man as a trophy for her accomplishments.

I don't concern myself with media much since I believe the influence it has on people is minimal and any influence it may have is completely negated by the fact that it's your choice to consume it or not. No one forces you to watch movies you don't enjoy.

 

That said movies and media in general that is focused on "strong" women is becoming more and more prevalent.

To give a few recent examples: Brave, Hunger Games, The Heat, the Underworld series

 

But putting that aside women enjoy heroic male leads just as much as men do.

The romance novel doesn't have hunky men on the covers for nothing you know.

 

Because of feminism, women’s professional sports are a massively profitable enterprise where women are globally idolized. Men only appear briefly, before commercial breaks, when they’re objectified for their bodies.

Women's sports aren't as popular as men's because, for the most part, sports requires strength and when you're watching women compete you are not watching the most exciting test of strength there is. There are exceptions like golf and poker and whatnot but talking about the major sports people watch them because that's what excites them. Take boxing, they want to watch two decked out men pummeling each other. Watching two female boxers do the same isn't as exciting because you know not as much force is behind the punches. It's like switching from MLB to a little league. The test of strength just isn't the same.

 

As for objectification.

It goes both ways. Remember those romance novels with the hunky guys I mentioned earlier?

Not to mention magazine ads, porn magazines, billboard ads, clothing ads, etc.

Pretty people are there to look pretty and sell products. If you don't like it don't buy the products.

 

Because of feminism, all birth control is covered for women without question or debate, while men have to fight to get insurance companies to pay for their Viagra prescriptions. When men do speak up about this, leaders of the “family friendly” right wing labels them “sluts” and “whores”.

Interesting...I don't remember free condoms being covered by my insurance.

 

Because of feminism, the male body is constantly under public scrutiny. If a man appears topless on TV, it’s a national scandal resulting in huge fines and boycotts. Bloggers regularly write about how we need to be more mindful of the ways our clothing choices tempt women to sin. Satirists insist that shorts “aren’t really pants” and then men should cover up because “nobody wants to see that”.

First of all both men and women protest nudity on public television.

Secondly men are in fact pressured to be physically fit just as much as women if not more so.

Thirdly, nobody wants to see any of that. This is why nudism is not a common thing.

On that note I've lost sight of what any of this has to do with feminism.

Is this article making the claim that feminism promotes nudity on television? Or that it's fighting said nudity?

 

Because of feminism, men are not represented in the White House, and women hold over 80% of the seats in Congress. When a man runs for office, his physical appearance and clothing choices are discussed almost as much as his policies and ideas.

Women hold and have held many positions of power in government.

And lest we forget women as a whole vote more than men. If 80% of congress is men you can thank women for putting them there.

 

Because of feminism, men must fight for a voice in the public sphere. In issues of theology, politics, science, and philosophy, the female perspective is often considered default, normal, and unbiased. Male perspectives are dismissed for being too subjective or too emotional. When we speak up, we are often dismissed as angry, rebellious, subversive, or dangerous.

Yeah no I'm just going to call false on that.

Academia (which is what I'm assuming this public sphere the article is talking about) is filled with women and all of them have opinions.

The truth is people are naturally hostile to positions they don't agree with no matter what it is. Does the person who wrote this article follow politics at all? You get a male Republican and a male Democrat into a debate and they'll turn all kinds of nasty to each other.

 

 

Barm posted that on FB, and I thought it was worth repeating here. It certainly makes you think, doesn't it? In most countries we've come a long way, but still have a long way to go. In some countries, women are still being subjected to the most horrific degradation, humiliation, torture, abuse and subjugation.

Well yes, in some countries women have acid thrown in their faces for attending school.

But then again in some countries men are killed by the thousands.

In the non western world it's pretty bad for people in general and it would be nice if we could recognize that instead of focusing on just men or women.

 

 

Throughout the world we have seen patriarchal cultures attempt to control women's sexuality by strict control of interactions with males, covering females physically, placing a high value on virginity, punishing women severely for adultery, allowing sexual assault as a punishment for crimes (real and imagined), "corrective rape" (an attempt to change a lesbian's sexual orientation) as well as placing responsibility on women for sexual assault by her dress or actions. Within this control and domination we also have exploitation such as forcing 9 year old girls into marriage.

This reminds me of another picture.

Cultures have differences and not all of them are necessarily bad even if you don't understand it.

As for underage marriage, it happens to little boys too. Again this is what I mean about people.

It's sad that we can't just agree that children shouldn't be forced to marry.

 

Thank you.  

 

i think it will be difficult to make progress in other areas, such as employment, education and equal pay when women still lack basic control over their own bodies.

Since I've covered employment and education and equal pay I'm curious...which part of your body exactly do you think you don't have control over?

[WildTaltos]

uhmm....i took thhe first post as a joke/satire becuse lot of the stuff claimms feminism acomplished, actualy hasnt - like men donnt obviusly have to fighht for voice in public spheres, lot of thinngs in way stil patriarchall - but aftre readin evryones elses posts which seemm so serious, realy dont know what to thinkk now

[michellem]

Elgee's first post is satire, to show what causes feminisn is actually about; it has taken things that are gender-related problems and switched the roles for men and women. Nolder obviously didn't understand this. Then Ryrin and I made some serious posts, I can't answer for Ryrin but I'm very passionate abot this subject and will take any opportunity given to rant away

[Kwom Masbag]

I dunno, that first post didn't seem like satire.  It seemed like an attempt to make somebody feel guilty for being a man and suggesting that perhaps feminism doesn't always have the interests of pure equality in mind.

[Ryrin]

You can speak for me on this, Mish!  I hold the same passion and concern about these issues effecting women around the world.  The satirical nature of the first post was intended to demonstrate that the oppression and bias towards women appears foolish when looked at from the other side of the fence.

 

 

http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/index.php/publications/publications-a-z/1556

 

The Facts: Gender Inequality and Violence Against Women and Girls Around the World

 

Honor killings occur when women are put to death for an act that is perceived as bringing shame to their families; this can mean killing as punishment for adultery or even for being the victim of rape.  In a study of female deaths in Egypt, 47 percent of female rape victims were  killed because of the dishonor the rape was thought to bring to the family.

 

Physical and sexual abuse of girls is a serious concern across all regions.

 

In South Africa, one in four men report having had sex with a woman against her will by the time he was 18 years old.

 

In Nigeria, a treatment center reported that 15 percent of female patients requiring treatment for sexually transmitted infections were under the age of five.  An additional six percent were between the ages of six and fifteen.

 

In the United States, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that 20 percent of young women experience intimate partner violence.

 

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=117951

 

Education, Health Care Denied.

 

The “State of World Population Report 2000” said girls and women the world over are still routinely denied access to education and health care — including control over their reproductive activity — and to equal pay and legal rights.

 

The report by the U.N. Population Fund said discrimination and violence against women “remain firmly rooted in cultures around the world,” stopping many from reaching their full potential.

 

The report added that at least one in three women has been beaten, coerced into sex, or abused in some way. One in four is abused during pregnancy.

 

[michellem]

I lost my whole post *cries* I wrote a looong, good post to Kwom! I'm sulking now, so I'll be back later when I'm not sulking anymore and try to rewrite it

[The_Fnorrll_Reborn]

Monitoring this thread very closely.

[Kwom Masbag]

I'm not saying that it's wrong to want, or even expect equality, and I'm not saying that men should stay at the top of the ladder, because, frankly, we shouldn't. However, I think "women should be equal to men" is the wrong way of looking at the issue. Rather, "everybody should be equal" is more what the thought process should be. When you only focus on one side of an issue, you risk losing sight of the entire problem.

[The_Fnorrll_Reborn]

I think everyone agrees with you there, Kwom. I'm pretty sure non of our members would dispute that. But this thread is about the situations where one particular minority- the female one- don't gets fair deal, and like it or not, that situation does indeed exist in some parts- geographically and otherwise- of the world.

[michellem]

I agree completly Kwom! There is bad things happening to both genders, in different areas. I think feminism often gets more attention because it's a longer struggle, and it's harder to see the wrong and hard things that men go through. A few of us do try, but it's a very big issue the whole gender-relations thing, it's a whole norm in todays society that make troubles for both genders, and they show in different ways.

[Kwom Masbag]

I dunno, Captain; the topic title is~ How Feminism Hurts Men.

 

That was a joke.

[Ryrin]

Kwon, it was an illustration, I think.  It demonstrated the absurdity of oppression by reversing from female to male.  IMO, the author was using satire to make a point.

 

The fact is, female gender oppression/discrimination exists.  It requires focus to eliminate the disparity.  

 

Mother noted in her post that  "In some countries, women are still being subjected to the most horrific degradation, humiliation, torture, abuse and subjugation."

 

A few of us went on to discuss that. 

 

While I was in Israel, at the Wall, I was forced to cover myself, my arms, legs etc.  The sign outside requested modest dress for everyone, but the only enforcement was towards females.  I observed men wearing shorts and sandals.

[Nolder]

http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/index.php/publications/publications-a-z/1556

 

The Facts: Gender Inequality and Violence Against Women and Girls Around the World

 

Honor killings occur when women are put to death for an act that is perceived as bringing shame to their families; this can mean killing as punishment for adultery or even for being the victim of rape.  In a study of female deaths in Egypt, 47 percent of female rape victims were  killed because of the dishonor the rape was thought to bring to the family.

 

Physical and sexual abuse of girls is a serious concern across all regions.

 

In South Africa, one in four men report having had sex with a woman against her will by the time he was 18 years old.

 

In Nigeria, a treatment center reported that 15 percent of female patients requiring treatment for sexually transmitted infections were under the age of five.  An additional six percent were between the ages of six and fifteen.

A lot of cherry picked statistics from non western nations.

As I've noted men and boys don't exactly have it easy in these places either.

What I don't understand is why so many people will use these statistics to justify feminism's continued existence in western nations where things are either equal or in favor of women in most cases. Egypt for example is not a shining bastion of freedom for ANYONE. I think it could benefit more from some actual democracy first before feminism.

 

 

In the United States, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that 20 percent of young women experience intimate partner violence.

I'm pretty sure the numbers are unreliable but I wont go into that right now because in fact the CDC also includes men in that statistic, which leads one to wonder why feminists focus on women specifically when men are equally victims. I thought feminism was working on men's issues too? Hmmm...maybe not so much.

 

Approximately 1 in 20 women and men (5.6% and

5.3%, respectively) experienced sexual violence

other than rape, such as being made to penetrate

someone else, sexual coercion, unwanted

sexual contact, or non-contact unwanted sexual

experiences, in the 12 months prior to the survey.

http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/sv-datasheet-a.pdf

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=117951

Multiple things wrong with this article and I'll go through them one by one.

 

About one-third of all pregnancies — 80 million a year — are believed to be unwanted or mistimed.

In this day and age, where birth control is so widespread even in underdeveloped nations, the responsibility for birth control is mainly women's.

At the end of the day abstinence is 100% effective and if a woman doesn't want to be pregnant she shouldn't be having sex.

 

and 20 million unsafe abortions.

I'd be interested to know how many of those are from women who do in fact have access to professional healthcare but choose not to go.

 

The “State of World Population Report 2000” said girls and women the world over are still routinely denied access to education and health care — including control over their reproductive activity — and to equal pay and legal rights.

I've already been over equal pay and since it's not clear what legal rights means exactly I'll skip those.

But I will say that being denied access to education is not necessarily done in an attempt to keep women "down" or whatever.

It's a cultural thing and I'm not saying I agree with it but in some places gender roles are extremely rigid and what we'd call traditional.

It's expected of a man to provide for his wife and children. And when I say expected I mean it is more like an unwritten law of the land. Education and jobs being more scarce in these places than say the US or UK these things NEED to go to men. If a women gets educated and takes a job she's putting a man out of work in order to basically make money for her to buy luxuries...because she will already have a man who's required to keep her sheltered and fed. Again I don't necessarily agree with this but I think it's important to understand that this is just a cultural difference and not some conspiracy to abuse or control women.

 

As for health care. I think (professional) health care is still scarce in a lot of places in the world for both men and women.

Maybe there are places where women are just turned away or something? If so I don't know of them since traditionally most of the world has operated under a "women and children first" thought process. But I guess it's possible. I just don't see why, if the health care existed, women would be turned away while men would be allowed.

 

In developing countries, only 53 percent of all births are attended by professionals, translating into “the neglect of 52.4 million women annually.” Nearly 30 percent of women who give birth in developing countries — some 38 million a year — receive no care after the birth.

Translates to? Sounds more like the author injecting their opinion to me.

Many couples choose to have "natural" births where they are not on any painkillers and are not attended by professional doctors.

That is a choice. And then again sometimes it isn't a choice. This goes back to a lot of places in the world not having proper health care period but that doesn't mean the world has an "anti woman bias" as the author contends.

 

The report added that at least one in three women has been beaten, coerced into sex, or abused in some way. One in four is abused during pregnancy.

This is a case of blurred lines and lumping everything possible into the statistic.

First of all what constitutes a beating or coercion? If you slapped your partner lightly during an argument...and then you have sex was that beating them? Is saying please coercion? And what is abuse? Like I noted before refusing to have sex with your spouse can be considered abuse but is it really? So is not having sex with your pregnant wife now abuse of a pregnant woman? These are things that I think many people don't think about when reading emotionally charged statistics like these.

 

At least 60 million girls, mostly in Asia, are listed as “missing,” as a result of infanticide, neglect or other factors and “as many as 5,000 women and girls are murdered each year in so-called ‘honor’ killings by members of their own families.”

Well in a society where men have the responsibility to take care of their parents and a society which LIMITS how many children you are legally allowed to have what do you expect the result will be? It's not right but it's easy to understand and it's not because asian parents hate women.

 

In addition, the report said, some 2 million girls between the ages of 5-15 join the sex trade each year.

It is a tragedy.

Although if we want to discuss child abuse specifically not just the "sex trade" I find it a worse offense that female perpetrators in positions of power are often let off with such light sentences. In most cases they wont even call a female teacher and a male student having sex rape. They call it things like "illicit acts" or whatnot.

 

Anyway I think that's all I have to say about that article.

It's pretty misleading about some things and more offended about others than it needs to be IMO.

[Senexx]

Generalisations are Great!

[michellem]

Lol Sen!

 

 

I think perhaps Nolder has blocked me.

[WWWwombat]

I'm still not sure I believe that women, as a whole, get catcalled on a regular basis.

The only people I ever hear say this are feminists. I'll take it at face value I guess but it's hard to imagine this happens at all let alone so often.

 

 

When you say things like this it makes it hard for anyone to take you seriously when you actually have a point.

 

For instance, your thing about pro sports is good.  It's hard to make people watch the WNBA when most women can't dunk.  Player salaries are largely determined by demand.  That being said, the most popular sport in the US is football, which, with the utter disregard for player health that the NFL shows, is about one step short of a blood sport.  Some people will take advantage of other people no matter what.

 

The fact is that women still have remarkably little power in Western society.  Regardless of the law, sexism is still strong.  It isn't as bad as several decades ago when sexual harassment wasn't even thought of as objectionable, but there are still a lot of shameful things going on out there.  To say otherwise would be as ludicrous as saying that the Civil Rights Acts ended racism.

 

There are definitely areas where men are at a disadvantage, but they are not nearly as numerous as those where women are.  I pretty much agree with what Kwom said about trying to combat all injustices.  Advocacy groups are important as they bring attention to specific issues, but it is also important not to lose the big picture.  People are taken advantage of for many different reasons.

 

Painting all feminists with the same brush as a miniscule lunatic fringe is rash and irresponsible.

[Nolder]

Lol Sen!

 

 

I think perhaps Nolder has blocked me.

I haven't blocked you.

Did you say something you wanted me to respond to?

[michellem]

No I'm just amazed you haven't picked apart my posts. Don't know how I feel about that.

 

 

 

 

But, this whole thread, especially the sexual harassment part, made me remember this that I saw yesterday:

http://www.upworthy.com/a-marine-was-assaulted-her-commander-said-she-deserved-it-for-wearing-running-shorts-really

[Nolder]

 

I'm still not sure I believe that women, as a whole, get catcalled on a regular basis.

The only people I ever hear say this are feminists. I'll take it at face value I guess but it's hard to imagine this happens at all let alone so often.

 

When you say things like this it makes it hard for anyone to take you seriously when you actually have a point.

 

It wasn't a tactful way to say it but it was honest.

Imagine for a moment the amount of instances this is "reported" on the internet.

Now realize that these women are talking about your father, your brothers, your uncles, your grandparents, your cousins, your friends, your friends relatives. Do you think men as a whole are so classless that this happens on a daily basis to so many women? I'm sure it does happen but the amount that people says it does is hard to believe especially since public transport (where it seems to "happen" the most) is what I generally use to get around and have since my early teen years. I've never seen a woman catcalled or harassed. Actually the only time I've ever seen anyone harassed was when me and a friend of mine (a guy) were walking to a store and a couple guys rode buy and honked their horns at us and called us some names. But like I said I'm willing to just accept it at face value for the sake of discussion. If that makes it harder for you to take me seriously that's ok with me.

 

The fact is that women still have remarkably little power in Western society.

I disagree. They may not hold positions of power (because they don't seek them) but the influence of women as a demographic is tremendous.

They don't need to actually hold power to get what they want in most cases. A perfect example of this is the right to vote. Women were granted that right without the responsibility of defending the nation (US) when called upon.

[Nolder]

No I'm just amazed you haven't picked apart my posts. Don't know how I feel about that.

I don't think you've said anything I disagree with really and quoting someone and saying "Yeah, this" doesn't add anything new to a conversation.