Caliban

Economic Stagnation?

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Theodril: 2.2 to grow... randland should need less (post trolloc wars) safer environment, less conflict, better medicine... of course there may have been quiet a bit of recovery post breaking to trolloc wars

 

2.2 means that every 5 couples have 11 children (net population increase of 1 person). Every generation increases by 10% only. And this is the ratio in our world today with all the vaccinations, social welfare, etc.

 

In a medieval setting (Randland) with low technology, famine, war, and limited accessibility of quality healthcare, etc. the ratio should be much higher for the population to increase.

Edited by Theodril

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Thank you. In the EotW scene it sounds like Moir is holding with Air (as Shortkut says). We are not really sure Aginor is using the TP even if he is levitating. In that case it sounds like an early bookism.

 

I had forgotten about Ishy floating in TDR. I must re-read that scene. Not sure how to reconcile that.

 

You're welcome.

 

everbody: in the books, the characters do say, one can't fly because it is impossible to pick onesself up by their own boot straps. The second half of this statement is true, but the first half is not. to fly one does not pick themselves up, but push down on the air around them, airplane wings are large enough to push down on a sufficient amount of air (for those who understand lift better, know it is about pressure) but it is even easier to see by a helicopter, to hover, one must shove downward a mass of air equal to the flight vehicle.

 

But the boot strap argument makes 0 sense in a world where that same magic can be used by 1 man to lift two women off the ground from feet away with ease, one man can freeze a dozen people in place with that magic, air.

That doesn't really follow. A man can lift a woman off the ground. If strong enough, he could lift two. If he had ridiculously long arms, he could do it from a few feet away. Doesn't mean he can levitate. Freezing people in place also does not indicate levitation should be possible.
Who says the air has to be anchored anywhere? If you make a platform of air in mid-air, will it fall? When Suian made that knife of air in front of her, it didn't blow away with the breath in the room.
The flows of Air were still connected to Siuan. If you made a platform in mid-air with nothing to support it, then it would fall, as things that aren't help up by anything have a habit of doing. If you were supporting it, then standing on it would be akin to picking yourself up by your bootstraps. If you tied the flows off, and connected them to something, they would remain in place.

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Thank you. In the EotW scene it sounds like Moir is holding with Air (as Shortkut says). We are not really sure Aginor is using the TP even if he is levitating. In that case it sounds like an early bookism.

 

I had forgotten about Ishy floating in TDR. I must re-read that scene. Not sure how to reconcile that.

 

You're welcome.

 

everbody: in the books, the characters do say, one can't fly because it is impossible to pick onesself up by their own boot straps. The second half of this statement is true, but the first half is not. to fly one does not pick themselves up, but push down on the air around them, airplane wings are large enough to push down on a sufficient amount of air (for those who understand lift better, know it is about pressure) but it is even easier to see by a helicopter, to hover, one must shove downward a mass of air equal to the flight vehicle.

 

But the boot strap argument makes 0 sense in a world where that same magic can be used by 1 man to lift two women off the ground from feet away with ease, one man can freeze a dozen people in place with that magic, air.

That doesn't really follow. A man can lift a woman off the ground. If strong enough, he could lift two. If he had ridiculously long arms, he could do it from a few feet away. Doesn't mean he can levitate. Freezing people in place also does not indicate levitation should be possible.
Who says the air has to be anchored anywhere? If you make a platform of air in mid-air, will it fall? When Suian made that knife of air in front of her, it didn't blow away with the breath in the room.
The flows of Air were still connected to Siuan. If you made a platform in mid-air with nothing to support it, then it would fall, as things that aren't help up by anything have a habit of doing. If you were supporting it, then standing on it would be akin to picking yourself up by your bootstraps. If you tied the flows off, and connected them to something, they would remain in place.

 

You're missing the point. We don't know what is connected to anything. Rand said he could have tied off that weave holding those people down (regardless of what you say, it's a good example using the strength argument), what is he tying it down too? The ground? So if you dig it up will that mean they can move? You're applying real world physics to a world that defys it. In our world, you need a catalyst to create fire, they create it out of nothing.

 

And yes a man can lift 2 women, I can lift 3 depending on size, but the amount of weight I can lift is not only judged by my strength, but my balance and real world physics, i.e. if woman a leans too far forward, we will tip over. If RL physics apply, the balance issue should come into play when lifting weights/people. Otherwise, it's not anchored to the person at all, and is self-supporting. Unless you want to apply some physics and not other.

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without looking up who mentioned entropy... channelers increase entropy, they can make fire, but a raging fire can only have its heat dissipated, not destroyed, freezing seems to be drawing heat out

 

women make better bridges because their weaves are less rigid

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You're missing the point. We don't know what is connected to anything. Rand said he could have tied off that weave holding those people down (regardless of what you say, it's a good example using the strength argument), what is he tying it down too? The ground? So if you dig it up will that mean they can move? You're applying real world physics to a world that defys it. In our world, you need a catalyst to create fire, they create it out of nothing.

 

And yes a man can lift 2 women, I can lift 3 depending on size, but the amount of weight I can lift is not only judged by my strength, but my balance and real world physics, i.e. if woman a leans too far forward, we will tip over. If RL physics apply, the balance issue should come into play when lifting weights/people. Otherwise, it's not anchored to the person at all, and is self-supporting. Unless you want to apply some physics and not other.

 

They can't make fire out of nothing, they make it out of the One Power. It's fueled by the flows that they call Fire. Evidence pretty much shows that flows of air supporting things need to be grounded in some way, either to the person, or between pillars of support (Elayne making a bridge). As for balancing issues, I don't think it breaks the laws of physics. Is it anchored to the channeler, or is it anchored through the channeler to the True Source itself? I don't know. But just because we don't know the explanation doesn't mean there isn't one.

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It is exceedingly hard to suspend disbelief or rather not think critically while listening to the story when it comes to the current economy and evolution that should have taken place in society over 3000 years..

 

Passed book 10 it becomes really hard since it sounds like there should be no food.. Nearly 1 year of scorching summer then a horrendous prolonged winter in a semi medieval society where large parts of stored food magically rots.. There should be much more death by starvation and disease..

 

Then there is other absurd freaky issues which just.. well to my mind everyone should already have died from starvation etc before they even get to the last battle..

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It is exceedingly hard to suspend disbelief or rather not think critically while listening to the story when it comes to the current economy and evolution that should have taken place in society over 3000 years..

 

Passed book 10 it becomes really hard since it sounds like there should be no food.. Nearly 1 year of scorching summer then a horrendous prolonged winter in a semi medieval society where large parts of stored food magically rots.. There should be much more death by starvation and disease..

 

Then there is other absurd freaky issues which just.. well to my mind everyone should already have died from starvation etc before they even get to the last battle..

 

 

Society did evolve.

 

A thousand years after the Breaking, a cataclysmic event that changed the face of the planet, mankind had rebuilt civilization. The Ten Nations were prosperous, cultured, and on their way to a new Age of Legends. Then Ishamael threw hordes of Trollocs at them. The Trolloc War lasted for centuries and utterly broke the Ten Nations.

 

The survivors picked up the pieces and tried to rebuild. A thousand years later, Artur Hawkwing united the land and was poised to bring about a new golden age. Ishamael whispered in the High King's ear and pulled the Black Ajah's strings. Hawkwing sent his son across the Aryth Ocean with an army and laid siege to Tar Valon, thus ensuring the collapse of his empire upon his death.

 

Randland society as we see in the books is the third iteration of civilization's attempt to rebuild itself. The people are clearly demoralized, and the echelons of highest power have been infiltrated by Darkfriends under Ishamael's control. Humanity is spent and slowly retreating upon itself, as Ingtar remarked.

 

Ishamael was winning.

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Any time they tried to rebuild, IShy was spun out and did everything he could to ruin the land.  Last thing Ishy wanted was a united technological advanced land waiting when the seals finally weakened.  So he ensured the land would be in chaos.  Randland is the result, weak nations, not enough people to even live in most of Randland., alot of open vacant land.

 

There was starvation, but not a lot of time was spent on it in the books, really who wants to read about all the suffering.  Min viewing in Tear about the child who would starve etc.  foreshadowed the suffering.  You also seem to forget in book 4 that Tear's granaries were overflowing.   The highlords were even complaining about how much grain  there was.  Even in book 6 things weren't that bad and the wonder girls fixed the weather with the bowl, it wasn't till the DO could really touch the world that things started to get bad.  Book one the winter was lingering but it's not like it was so bad that mass starvation was occurring at the beginning of the series.

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My two cents about the White Tower:

- As others have mentioned, they are a conservative institution. And they are NOT interested in enlightening the people. They are perfectly happy with being an intellectual elite. Hell, they don't even want all the sisters to know what there is to know. If they had started schools and shared their knowledge, society would be much more progressive and "further along". But they don't want to.

 

- People forget that human society was basically the same from ancient times until the late 1700s. Of course, this is simplified. But from the moment humans started to settle down in cities and grow the land, their society developed a lot compared to the hunter/gatherer variety they used to live in, but not all that much until the next technological revolution. Which took thousands of years. Of course, it wasn't like society didn't develop at all in this interim. But if you really look at it, there wasn't really that much separating ancient Rome from 17th-century France (except that Rome's military actually was pretty good for a while). The introduction of Christianity and Islam, which united societies that had previously been divided between various small pagan religions, was of course also important for the development of larger societies - much like the Seanchan managed to rule a whole continent through a combo of military force and religious control. 

 

- The White Tower know that their airs of mystics and manipulation is what gives them the position they have. If they gave this up to try to work together to create a better society, they would lose a lot of their power.

 

- They have also stagnated. If you look at their records, the WT used to be much more powerful. At the start of the series, their numbers have dwindled and they are essentially "dying" as an institution. Less channeling people in the gene pool because of the Red Ajah's culling, growing distrust of the WT which led to many people avoiding to send their channelers there, and internal conservatism which prevented new thoughts (like Egwene's thought of letting everyone who can channel join, regardless of age or "race") were some of the reasons. Most of the AS alive don't know about their rich history. They have forgotten what a force the AS used to be. Not even everyone in the Brown Ajah knows about some of the feats (and failures) of the tower. The secrecy also shrouds the tower itself. As fewer and fewe AS know about this stuff, fewer and fewer also pass the knowlegde on. 

 

As for the rest of society: well, Ishamael, and the nobility's wish to keep their positions were essential. They knew if they let people go about their lives and made sure the poorest also stood a chance to get something to eat, people wouldn't really care about who was in control.

Edited by OlwenaSedai

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