Mashiara Sedai

To balefire balefire…

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Virginia mentioned in one of the episodes of tGS recap that she wanted an input on what would happen if you balefired someone who balefired you…

 

I think it would be physically impossible to balefire someone who is balefiring you. If you are aiming balefire at someone, while they are aiming at you, the streams of balefire would hit each other, resulting in an explosion or a Moridin/Rand connection thingy. Now, if you aimed at their head, while they aimed at your feet, I still don’t think you could balefire at the same moment. One of the streams would hit before the other, even if only a millisecond sooner, and it would erase that person, and their balefire (shot at you) would be erased as well. That, however, brings up the question of if the balefire hits your feet, does it just erase your feet, or does it kill you? I’d assume if balefire hit any part of you, you’re toast.

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I agree. But...

 

Person A shoots Balefire at Person B. Person B shoots Balefire at Person A.

 

I assume that Balefire does nat travel at the speed of light, but still pretty fast.

 

If Balefire in itself is a erasure from the pattern is it possible that once committed Balefire cannot be unmade? i.e. Person A and Person B are both wiped from the pattern at the same moment?

 

Or is it that being a creation of a channeler the Balefire is unmade when the channeler is? i.e. Person A hits Person B with Balefire. (Even a 10X1/-10000000000000 second before) And Person B ceases to exist so the Balefire was never made to begin with.

 

In my head, Balefire shot at Balefire would go through each other. But thats just a "How WoT physics work in my head kind of thing".

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Its not that the balefire itself would be unmade, its that the person creating the balefire and the actions required for them to create it were undoen, therefore the balefire of person B was never created in the 1st place.

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Indeed. As astx said. It's like time machine for one person's actions. Like what happened at Caemlyn when Rahvin and Rand fought (It was those two right? xD )

 

 

Anyhow, wouldn't the following create a paradox:

 

Person B Balefires person A. Person A is ripped out of pattern.

 

Person C Balefires person B. Person B's actions would be undone, thus person A should return back to reality?

 

Person A is back and Balefires Person C. Person C's actions go undone, so person A disappears, person B comes back to life and person C disappears? D:

Edited by Ananta

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My brain has been balefired by your paradox.

 

 

does that mean you never asked the question and therefor never got the answer thereby getting your brain back (or rather never bale-fired in the first place?

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Hello all-

 

Wow, I'm surprised that this topic that has sparked my ongoing argument with Virginia is still feeding public debate. :rolleyes: Before this goes much further, I figured I would come on and clarify my own line of thought in this argument.

 

Basically where Virgina and I disagree is the effect balefire has on the pattern itself. In my thinking, once a thread is burned from the pattern it remains burned out until the next weaving. The reason balefire is dangerous isn't because it undoes previous actions, but because each use of it removes threads from the pattern. If person A is balefired by person B, in my mind the act of balefiring person B will not restore thread A, but will cause an amount of unraveling because the balefire that burned thread A out no longer exists. Therefore, thread A is still gone, as is thread B, but the reason behind A's disappearance from the patter is now missing. The destabilizing effect and resulting balescreams come because there is no counter-weave to balefire (i.e. a weave that will re-string a burnt out thread). For me, the fact that the second balefire blast elminates the original balefirer doesn't restore the original thread because it is already burnt itself.

 

Another way to think about it is that each thread in the pattern begins as a gray thread. This thread gains color when a person is born, and returns to being gray when the person dies. The thread continues to exist regardless of the state of living that its bearer possesses. When a person is killed untimely their thread goes gray, but the pattern retains cohesion because the thread still exists. When the thread that caused another thread to prematurely go gray is struck with balefire it is removed from the pattern entirely. If it is removed sufficiently far back, the grayed thread will gain the color it was originally denied by the burnt thread. Though the originally grayed thread now has color, the binding thread that held it partially in place is gone, and it is somewhat looser in the pattern. The thread that was removed from the pattern doesn't go gray, and doesn't continue in the pattern; so even if the thread responsible for removing it is itself removed, there is no restoring the original binding thread, and as a result, colors begin to leak into parts of the pattern that were supposed to be grayed and with binding threads going missing the cohesion of the whole pattern begins to weaken.

 

I sort of wish I had some type of technology with which I could illustrate this concept. Maybe I'll go play around with photoshop or paint.

 

Anyway, I hope this clears up my standing on the situation. For me it has never been about two people simultaneously balefiring each other, but rather the cumulative effects of multiple balefire use on the pattern as a whole.

 

Suravye ninto manshima taishite,

 

Andrew Gelos

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Hello all-

 

Wow, I'm surprised that this topic that has sparked my ongoing argument with Virginia is still feeding public debate. :rolleyes: Before this goes much further, I figured I would come on and clarify my own line of thought in this argument.

 

Basically where Virgina and I disagree is the effect balefire has on the pattern itself. In my thinking, once a thread is burned from the pattern it remains burned out until the next weaving. The reason balefire is dangerous isn't because it undoes previous actions, but because each use of it removes threads from the pattern. If person A is balefired by person B, in my mind the act of balefiring person B will not restore thread A, but will cause an amount of unraveling because the balefire that burned thread A out no longer exists. Therefore, thread A is still gone, as is thread B, but the reason behind A's disappearance from the patter is now missing. The destabilizing effect and resulting balescreams come because there is no counter-weave to balefire (i.e. a weave that will re-string a burnt out thread). For me, the fact that the second balefire blast elminates the original balefirer doesn't restore the original thread because it is already burnt itself.

 

Another way to think about it is that each thread in the pattern begins as a gray thread. This thread gains color when a person is born, and returns to being gray when the person dies. The thread continues to exist regardless of the state of living that its bearer possesses. When a person is killed untimely their thread goes gray, but the pattern retains cohesion because the thread still exists. When the thread that caused another thread to prematurely go gray is struck with balefire it is removed from the pattern entirely. If it is removed sufficiently far back, the grayed thread will gain the color it was originally denied by the burnt thread. Though the originally grayed thread now has color, the binding thread that held it partially in place is gone, and it is somewhat looser in the pattern. The thread that was removed from the pattern doesn't go gray, and doesn't continue in the pattern; so even if the thread responsible for removing it is itself removed, there is no restoring the original binding thread, and as a result, colors begin to leak into parts of the pattern that were supposed to be grayed and with binding threads going missing the cohesion of the whole pattern begins to weaken.

 

I sort of wish I had some type of technology with which I could illustrate this concept. Maybe I'll go play around with photoshop or paint.

 

Anyway, I hope this clears up my standing on the situation. For me it has never been about two people simultaneously balefiring each other, but rather the cumulative effects of multiple balefire use on the pattern as a whole.

 

Suravye ninto manshima taishite,

 

Andrew Gelos

Specifically to you according to the books the act of balefire will unravel the pattern hence why it's dangerous a good example of this would be when rand balefire the dark hound that was eating through the door everyone still remembers what happens effect A person seeing a darkhound eating through the door slobering on them. effect B (after balefire) just a small hole with a little saliva getting through but mat still remembers a huge hole. this is considered a paradox. now though they remember this the effect on mat instead of a lot of saliva is a little got through so lets say a whole pack of darkhounds kill 200 people right before they woulda have kill 600 trollocs who in the time that the darkhounds where burned out killed 10000 people. (say several weeks of time burned off the darkhounds) so the 200 people kill the 600 trollocs which save the 10000 people but because those 10200 people are now alive the person who balefired the darkhounds has gotten killed by person in that group who happend to be a darkfriend. therefore causing the point where the balefire never happened that will not cause the darkhounds to come back it will just kill that one person. Or for example of the one earlier on the page. spot does not matter rand has hit things through differn't area's instantly causing the entire being to be balefired because it is one thread apparently the world isn't part of the pattern because you can balefire a piece of a pillar and not get rid of the entire connected building. And if person a balefired person b the balefire would stop back at the point where the person was burned if it was a millisecond they where burned out of the balefire could come very close to person a's face.

Here's a different questions. If person a balefires person b 1 year into the past causing a person c that person b killed to be alive and person c to be alive again but then goes and kills person a before he woulda have killed person b would it cause person A to come back to life?

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Person B Balefires person A. Person A is ripped out of pattern.

 

Person C Balefires person B. Person B's actions would be undone, thus person A should return back to reality?

 

Person A is back and Balefires Person C. Person C's actions go undone, so person A disappears, person B comes back to life and person C disappears? D:

 

I love it.

 

A=Rand

B=Demandred

C=Moridin

 

Demandred balefires Rand. Then Moridin balefires Demandred, Rand comes back. Rand balefires Moridin meaning Moridin didnt balefire Demandred, and since Demandreds actions were no longer undone, he HAD balefired Rand to start off with. Demandred wins, flawless victory.

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Person B Balefires person A. Person A is ripped out of pattern.

 

Person C Balefires person B. Person B's actions would be undone, thus person A should return back to reality?

 

Person A is back and Balefires Person C. Person C's actions go undone, so person A disappears, person B comes back to life and person C disappears? D:

 

I love it.

 

A=Rand

B=Demandred

C=Moridin

 

Demandred balefires Rand. Then Moridin balefires Demandred, Rand comes back. Rand balefires Moridin meaning Moridin didnt balefire Demandred, and since Demandreds actions were no longer undone, he HAD balefired Rand to start off with. Demandred wins, flawless victory.

umm just to be a pain by your own logic it would be a never ending cycle of death and would be considered a paradox. if balefiring someone unbalefires someone else then balefiring someone who balefired someone who had balefired you till they would balefire would constantly distroy yourself but according to rules you remember what happens when somethines balefired so by the time you got to someone like rand who ends up balefiring moridin who was last to die he understands that it's better to kill him with such as small beam of balefire that it only burns him out 1/100th of a second before he died therefor not unbalefiring anyone but still killing. therefor by your own logic the winner really is rand.

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Person B Balefires person A. Person A is ripped out of pattern.

 

Person C Balefires person B. Person B's actions would be undone, thus person A should return back to reality?

 

Person A is back and Balefires Person C. Person C's actions go undone, so person A disappears, person B comes back to life and person C disappears? D:

 

I love it.

 

A=Rand

B=Demandred

C=Moridin

 

Demandred balefires Rand. Then Moridin balefires Demandred, Rand comes back. Rand balefires Moridin meaning Moridin didnt balefire Demandred, and since Demandreds actions were no longer undone, he HAD balefired Rand to start off with. Demandred wins, flawless victory.

umm just to be a pain by your own logic it would be a never ending cycle of death and would be considered a paradox. if balefiring someone unbalefires someone else then balefiring someone who balefired someone who had balefired you till they would balefire would constantly distroy yourself but according to rules you remember what happens when somethines balefired so by the time you got to someone like rand who ends up balefiring moridin who was last to die he understands that it's better to kill him with such as small beam of balefire that it only burns him out 1/100th of a second before he died therefor not unbalefiring anyone but still killing. therefor by your own logic the winner really is rand.

 

Its confusing enough without adding different strength of balefire into it!

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Hello all-

 

Wow, I'm surprised that this topic that has sparked my ongoing argument with Virginia is still feeding public debate. :rolleyes: Before this goes much further, I figured I would come on and clarify my own line of thought in this argument.

 

Basically where Virgina and I disagree is the effect balefire has on the pattern itself. In my thinking, once a thread is burned from the pattern it remains burned out until the next weaving. The reason balefire is dangerous isn't because it undoes previous actions, but because each use of it removes threads from the pattern. If person A is balefired by person B, in my mind the act of balefiring person B will not restore thread A, but will cause an amount of unraveling because the balefire that burned thread A out no longer exists. Therefore, thread A is still gone, as is thread B, but the reason behind A's disappearance from the patter is now missing. The destabilizing effect and resulting balescreams come because there is no counter-weave to balefire (i.e. a weave that will re-string a burnt out thread). For me, the fact that the second balefire blast elminates the original balefirer doesn't restore the original thread because it is already burnt itself.

 

Another way to think about it is that each thread in the pattern begins as a gray thread. This thread gains color when a person is born, and returns to being gray when the person dies. The thread continues to exist regardless of the state of living that its bearer possesses. When a person is killed untimely their thread goes gray, but the pattern retains cohesion because the thread still exists. When the thread that caused another thread to prematurely go gray is struck with balefire it is removed from the pattern entirely. If it is removed sufficiently far back, the grayed thread will gain the color it was originally denied by the burnt thread. Though the originally grayed thread now has color, the binding thread that held it partially in place is gone, and it is somewhat looser in the pattern. The thread that was removed from the pattern doesn't go gray, and doesn't continue in the pattern; so even if the thread responsible for removing it is itself removed, there is no restoring the original binding thread, and as a result, colors begin to leak into parts of the pattern that were supposed to be grayed and with binding threads going missing the cohesion of the whole pattern begins to weaken.

 

I sort of wish I had some type of technology with which I could illustrate this concept. Maybe I'll go play around with photoshop or paint.

 

Anyway, I hope this clears up my standing on the situation. For me it has never been about two people simultaneously balefiring each other, but rather the cumulative effects of multiple balefire use on the pattern as a whole.

 

Suravye ninto manshima taishite,

 

Andrew Gelos

WARNING SPOILERS I agree with Andrew 's post although John was talking about different strengths of balefire is something I was thinking about as another determining factor of the resulting consequences on the Pattern and the person's particular weave in the pattern. I think the only way to give a loose example of being totally wiped from the pattern with balefire is death in The Wolf Dream/Tel'aran'rhiod/The World of Dreams. It is the final death according to the books just as if you are hit with balefire (not even considering different strengths of balefire). From my understanding the stronger the weave of balefire directed at somoneone/something the further back in history you erase it from the pattern. When Rand directed balefire towards Natrin's Barrow he created a huge balescream in the Pattern, even though Natrin's Barrow had lain unused for some time it's place in history was also removed. In the process it may have altered any peoples who had living memories of the place (aside from the people who had witnessed it). Also it would be amazing if in the course of the A Memory of Light that someone found a way to not reverse balefire or a way to be able to restore what once existed but to repair the damage done to the weaves in the pattern. Perhaps male and female channellers working in unison (and maybe ter'angreals) this could potentially be a possibility. If someone is creative enough to think of it or imagine the possibility of it. It would be cool but I have no idea if this is something that is within the realms of possibility even in the World of Wheel of Time.

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Andrew's description of how things would play out is accurate and can essentially be proven.

 

Balefire cannot be undone, even if the maker is burned out of the pattern with a subsequent balefire. Just one very real example of this from the books is the battle between Rand and Rahvin at the end of TFoH.

 

Order of events:

1) Mat/Asmodean/Avi are killed by Rahvin's actions, but not with balefire.

2) Rand chases after Rahvin

3) Rahvin fires balefire all over the palace at Rand, but missed. He did however hit many other things, severely damaging the palace and burning peices of it out of the pattern.

4) Rand balefires Rahvin.

5) Events in 1 are undone, however events in 3 are not.

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I remember having read something about this topic...

 

 

PAUL WARD

 

Possible questions: Does balefire affect itself? Can you balefire balefire? If you balefire another person, but then you get balefired, what happens to the person you balefired?

ROBERT JORDAN

 

 

The balefire weave exists wholly or partly outside time, which removes it from its own effect.

PAUL WARD

 

This would have been helpful back during the balefire physics debates.

TAGS

 

balefire

Edited by Zjossy

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Hello all-

 

Wow, I'm surprised that this topic that has sparked my ongoing argument with Virginia is still feeding public debate. http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/#EMO_DIR#/rolleyes.gif Before this goes much further, I figured I would come on and clarify my own line of thought in this argument.

 

Basically where Virgina and I disagree is the effect balefire has on the pattern itself. In my thinking, once a thread is burned from the pattern it remains burned out until the next weaving. The reason balefire is dangerous isn't because it undoes previous actions, but because each use of it removes threads from the pattern. If person A is balefired by person B, in my mind the act of balefiring person B will not restore thread A, but will cause an amount of unraveling because the balefire that burned thread A out no longer exists. Therefore, thread A is still gone, as is thread B, but the reason behind A's disappearance from the patter is now missing. The destabilizing effect and resulting balescreams come because there is no counter-weave to balefire (i.e. a weave that will re-string a burnt out thread). For me, the fact that the second balefire blast elminates the original balefirer doesn't restore the original thread because it is already burnt itself.

 

Another way to think about it is that each thread in the pattern begins as a gray thread. This thread gains color when a person is born, and returns to being gray when the person dies. The thread continues to exist regardless of the state of living that its bearer possesses. When a person is killed untimely their thread goes gray, but the pattern retains cohesion because the thread still exists. When the thread that caused another thread to prematurely go gray is struck with balefire it is removed from the pattern entirely. If it is removed sufficiently far back, the grayed thread will gain the color it was originally denied by the burnt thread. Though the originally grayed thread now has color, the binding thread that held it partially in place is gone, and it is somewhat looser in the pattern. The thread that was removed from the pattern doesn't go gray, and doesn't continue in the pattern; so even if the thread responsible for removing it is itself removed, there is no restoring the original binding thread, and as a result, colors begin to leak into parts of the pattern that were supposed to be grayed and with binding threads going missing the cohesion of the whole pattern begins to weaken.

 

I sort of wish I had some type of technology with which I could illustrate this concept. Maybe I'll go play around with photoshop or paint.

 

Anyway, I hope this clears up my standing on the situation. For me it has never been about two people simultaneously balefiring each other, but rather the cumulative effects of multiple balefire use on the pattern as a whole.

 

Suravye ninto manshima taishite,

 

Andrew Gelos

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