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CUBAREY

IQ tests

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I hardly think that I am an expert in all things racist.

 

As to the bolded quote:

A number of studies have compared average IQ scores between the world's nations, finding patterns of difference between continental populations similar to those associated with race. Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen have argued that populations in the third world, particularly populations in Africa, tend to have limited intelligence because of their genetic composition and that, consequently, education cannot be effective in creating social and economic development in third world countries.[51] Lynn and Vanhanen's studies have been severely criticized for relying on low quality data and for choosing sources in ways that seem to be biased severely towards underestimating the average IQ potential of developing nations, particularly in Africa.[52][53][54] Nonetheless there is a general consensus that the average IQ in developing countries is lower than in developed countries, but subsequent research has favored environmental explanations for this fact, such as lack of basic infrastructure related to health and education.

In the 2002 book IQ and the Wealth of Nations, and IQ and Global Inequality in 2006, Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen created estimates of average IQs for 113 nations. They estimated IQs of 79 other nations based on neighboring nations or via other means. They saw a consistent correlation between national development and national IQ averages. They found the highest national IQs among Western and East Asian developed nations and the lowest national IQs in the world's least developed nations among the indigenous peoples in the regions of Sub-Saharan Africa, Southeast Asia and Latin America.[55] In a meta-analysis of studies of IQ estimates in Sub-Saharan Africa, Wicherts, Dolan & van der Maas (2009), p. 10 concluded that Lynn and Vanhanen had relied on unsystematic methodology by failing to publish their criteria for including or excluding studies. They found that Lynn and Vanhanen's exclusion of studies had depressed their IQ estimate for sub-Saharan Africa, and that including studies excluded in "IQ and Global Inequality" resulted in average IQ of 82 for sub-Saharan Africa, lower than the average in Western countries, but higher than Lynn and Vanhanen's estimate of 67. Wicherts at al. conclude that this difference is likely due to sub-Saharan Africa having limited access to modern advances in education, nutrition and health care.[56] A 2010 systematic review by the same research team, along with Jerry S. Carlson, found that compared to American norms, the average IQ of sub-Saharan Africans was about 80. The same review concluded that the Flynn effect had not yet taken hold in sub-Saharan Africa.[57]

A 2007 meta-analysis by Rindermann found many of the same groupings and correlations found by Lynn and Vanhanen, with the lowest scores in sub-Saharan Africa, and a correlation of .60 between cognitive skill and GDP per capita.Hunt (2010, pp. 437–439) considers Rindermann's analysis to be much more reliable than Lynn and Vanhanen's. By measuring the relationship between educational data and social well-being over time, this study also performed a causal analysis, finding that when nations invest in education this leads to increased well-being later on.[58] Kamin (2006) has also criticized Lynn and Vanhanen's work on the IQs of sub-Saharan Africans.[59]

Wicherts, Borsboom & Dolan (2010) argue that studies reporting support for evolutionary theories of intelligence based on national IQ data suffer from multiple fatal methodological flaws. For example, they state that such studies "...assume that the Flynn Effect is either nonexistent or invariant with respect to different regions of the world, that there have been no migrations and climatic changes over the course of evolution, and that there have been no trends over the last century in indicators of reproductive strategies (e.g., declines in fertility and infant mortality)." They also showed that a strong degree of confounding exists between national IQs and current national development status.[60] Similarly, Pesta & Poznanski (2014) showed that the average temperature of a given U.S. state is strongly associated with that state's average IQ and other well-being variables, despite the fact that evolution has not had enough time to operate on non-Native American residents of the United States. They also noted that this association persisted even after controlling for race, and concluded that "Evolution is therefore not necessary for temperature and IQ/well-being to co-vary meaningfully across geographic space."[61]

Flynn effect and the closing gap

Main article: Flynn effect

For the past century raw scores on IQ tests have been rising; this score increase is known as the "Flynn effect," named after Jim Flynn. In the United States, the increase was continuous and approximately linear from the earliest years of testing to about 1998 when the gains stopped and some tests even showed decreasing test scores. For example, in the United States the average scores of blacks on some IQ tests in 1995 were the same as the scores of whites in 1945.[62] As one pair of academics phrased it, "the typical African American today probably has a slightly higher IQ than the grandparents of today's average white American."[63]

Flynn has argued that given that these changes take place between one generation and the next it is highly unlikely that genetic factors could account for the increasing scores, which must then be caused by environmental factors. The Flynn Effect has often been used as an argument that the racial gap in IQ test scores must be environmental too, but this is not generally agreed – others have asserted that the two may have entirely different causes. A meta-analysis by Te Nijenhuis and van der Flier (2013) concluded that the Flynn effect and group differences in intelligence were likely to have different causes. They stated that the Flynn effect is caused primarily by environmental factors and that it's unlikely these same environmental factors play an important role in explaining group differences in IQ.[64] The importance of the Flynn effect in the debate over the causes for the IQ gap lies in demonstrating that environmental factors may cause changes in test scores on the scale of 1 SD. This had previously been doubted.

A separate phenomenon from the Flynn effect has been the discovery that the IQ gap has been gradually closing over the last decades of the 20th century, as black test-takers increased their average scores relative to white test-takers. For instance, Vincent reported in 1991 that the black-white IQ gap was decreasing among children, but that it was remaining constant among adults.[65] Similarly, a 2006 study by Dickens and Flynn estimated that the difference between mean scores of blacks and whites closed by about 5 or 6 IQ points between 1972 and 2002,[66] a reduction of about one-third. In the same period, the educational achievement disparity also diminished.[67] However, this was challenged by Rushton & Jensen who claim the difference remains stable.[68] In a 2006 study, Murray agreed with Dickens and Flynn that there has been a narrowing of the difference; "Dickens' and Flynn's estimate of 3–6 IQ points from a base of about 16–18 points is a useful, though provisional, starting point". But he argued that this has stalled and that there has been no further narrowing for people born after the late 1970s.[69] A subsequent study by Murray, based on the Woodcock–Johnson Tests of Cognitive Abilities, estimated that the black-white IQ difference decreased by about one-half of one standard deviation from those born in the 1920s to those born in the second half of the 1960s and early 1970s.[70] Recent reviews by Flynn and Dickens (2006), Mackintosh (2011), and Nisbett et al. 2012 accept the gradual closing of the gap as a fact. In his review of the historical trends, Hunt (2010), p. 411 states: "There is some variety in the results, but not a great deal. The African American means are about 1 standard deviation unit (15 points on the IQ scale) below the White means, and the Hispanic means fall in between."

Some studies reviewed by Hunt (2010), p. 418 found that rise in the average achievement of African Americans was caused by a reduction in the number of African American students in the lowest range of scores without a corresponding increase in the number of students in the highest ranges. A 2012 review of the literature found that the IQ gap had diminished by 0.33 standard deviations since first reported.[23][71]

A 2013 analysis of the National Assessment of Educational Progress found that from 1971 to 2008, the size of the black–white IQ gap in the United States decreased from 16.33 to 9.94 IQ points. It has also concluded however that, while IQ means are continuing to rise in all ethnic groups, this growth is occurring more slowly among 17-year-old students than among younger students and the black-white IQ gap is no longer narrowing. As of 2008, studies by Heiner Rindermann, Stefan Pinchelmann, and James Thompson have estimated the IQ means of 17-year-old black, white, and Hispanic students to range respectively from 90.45-94.15, 102.29-104.57 and 92.30-95.90 points.[72][73] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

 

 

Certainly "race" may be a placeholder for other more subtle differences, but the evidence does suggest that their are significant cognitive abilities between groups, that these differences may to some extent narrow if certain enviromental infuences are controlled does not negate the fact that in actuality there are real observable differences in the cognitive abilities of racial groups generally. Even if we were to agree that these differences are 100% enviromental we would still have to deal with the fact that for whatever reasons their is a gradation in cognitive abilities among different groups with Southeast Asians being on the top wrung of the ladder and subsaharan africans and their descendants on the lowest wrung.

 

 

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I'm just amazed that you (Cubarey) with all of your knowledge, actually believes IQ tests are even a good measurement of intelligence, and would use that to support racist ideology that certain races are less intelligence because of IQ scores, and such studies should make massive caveats about comparing apples to oranges to hamburgers.

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Think they are pretty  good indicators of cognitive ability and even better at measuring potential to to do well in highly technalogical modern societies.  The issue in my mind is not racist as the lower 20% of even the top group would likely fall far below the top 10 % of the lowest group. So it always comes down to individuals and their personal abilities.  They do however throw some light as to why prosperous technalogically advanced societies tend to historically been overrepresented in certain groups and why in the expanse of known history their have at best been a less then a handful of such societies among subsaharan peoples.

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@CUBAREY

 

The way IQ is measured caters to certain groups.  In education theory we've moved well past IQ as a determiner for exception.  IQ test are inherently flawed, they trend towards whites and asians generally, especially aflluent whites and asians.

 

There are many different types of intelligence and IQ tests are a poor determinent.  

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Some people intentionally used IQ tests at their inception to "prove" that other races were inferior.  Bringing in a first generation immigrant and giving them an IQ test proves nothing except that the people in charge have an agenda.

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IQ tests are given widely and not just in the US and the west. If anyone bothered actually  reading the bit I quoted you would have found that the findings of several of the studies are based on I Q test scores given in countries around the world. So the scores of certain low performing groups are based not only on the results of tests given to immigrants in the US and other parts of the west but on tests given in in their home countries.

 

Also, Krakalakachkn when first generation immigrants of southeast Asian descent are given the result is rather expected, they score like other southeast Asian that is the score significantly higher then any other group including whites. So exactly what agenda do people giving Asian immigrants have? Also IQ tests are given along side proficiency tests in most schools. It's a rather good way of determining which schools and communities may need special help in education.

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2 minutes ago, CUBAREY said:

IQ tests are given widely and not just in the US and the west. If anyone bothered actually  reading the bit I quoted you would have found that the findings of several of the studies are based on I Q test scores given in countries around the world. So the scores of certain low performing groups are based not only on the results of tests given to immigrants in the US and other parts of the west but on tests given in in their home countries.

 

Also, Krakalakachkn when first generation immigrants of southeast Asian descent are given the result is rather expected, they score like other southeast Asian that is the score significantly higher then any other group including whites. So exactly what agenda do people giving Asian immigrants have? Also IQ tests are given along side proficiency tests in most schools. It's a rather good way of determining which schools and communities may need special help in education.

I highly suggest you look up/research the flaws in IQ testing and not just the ones that support racist ideology. :laugh:

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I am quite willing to admit that IQ tests have flaws and that they are imperfect barameters  of cognitive ability. However, the fact that IQ tests are routinely given around the world with most developed and given by locals also indicates that whatever their flaws they are useful tools in many scenerios and are not "culturally biased". 

 

Further In the US there are at least three such tests that are both routinely used and actually are good predictors those being the SATS  the LSAT and Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery (formerlly the Army General Classification Test).

 

 

"Some people intentionally used IQ tests at their inception to "prove" that other races were inferior.  "

 

And the same people misused the new science of genetics for the same purpose. Are you seriously arguing that the study of genetics should be disregarded because some point in the past it was used to bolster racists arguments?

 

Also " the first intelligence tests where created during World War I to screen the thousands of soldiers being recruited by the United States Military.[8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_General_Classification_Test   "Overall, the Army Alpha and the Army Beta tests were designed to find the mental age of military recruits and to assess incoming recruits for success in the US Military by testing one's ability to understand language, to perform reasoning with semantic and quantitative relationships, to make practical judgments, to infer rules and regulations, and to recall general information." It was only ten years later that IQ tests began being used by the eugenics movement. 

 

 

 

 

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Here's a short overview article on intelligence testing in education and why it's still relevant>

 

"

Intelligent intelligence testing

Psychologists are broadening the concept of intelligence and how to test it.

By ETIENNE BENSON

Monitor Staff

February 2003, Vol 34, No. 2

Print version: page 48

Standardized intelligence testing has been called one of psychology's greatest successes. It is certainly one of the field's most persistent and widely used inventions.

Since Alfred Binet first used a standardized test to identify learning-impaired Parisian children in the early 1900s, it has become one of the primary tools for identifying children with mental retardation and learning disabilities. It has helped the U.S. military place its new recruits in positions that suit their skills and abilities. And, since the administration of the original Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT)--adapted in 1926 from an intelligence test developed for the U.S. Army during World War I--it has spawned a variety of aptitude and achievement tests that shape the educational choices of millions of students each year.

But intelligence testing has also been accused of unfairly stratifying test-takers by race, gender, class and culture; of minimizing the importance of creativity, character and practical know-how; and of propagating the idea that people are born with an unchangeable endowment of intellectual potential that determines their success in life.

Since the 1970s, intelligence researchers have been trying to preserve the usefulness of intelligence tests while addressing those concerns. They have done so in a number of ways, including updating the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children (WISC) and the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Scale so they better reflect the abilities of test-takers from diverse cultural and linguistic backgrounds. They have developed new, more sophisticated ways of creating, administering and interpreting those tests. And they have produced new theories and tests that broaden the concept of intelligence beyond its traditional boundaries.

As a result, many of the biases identified by critics of intelligence testing have been reduced, and new tests are available that, unlike traditional intelligence tests, are based on modern theories of brain function, says Alan Kaufman, PhD, a clinical professor of psychology at the Yale School of Medicine.

For example, in the early 1980s, Kaufman and his wife, Nadeen Kaufman, EdD, a lecturer at the Yale School of Medicine, published the Kaufman Assessment Battery for Children (K-ABC), then one of the only alternatives to the WISC and the Stanford-Binet. Together with the Woodcock-Johnson Tests of Cognitive Ability, first published in the late 1970s, and later tests, such as the Differential Ability Scales and the Cognitive Assessment System (CAS), the K-ABC helped expand the field of intelligence testing beyond the traditional tests.

Nonetheless, says Kaufman, there remains a major gap between the theories and tests that have been developed in the past 20 years and the way intelligence tests are actually used. Narrowing that gap remains a major challenge for intelligence researchers as the field approaches its 100th anniversary.

King of the hill

Among intelligence tests for children, one test currently dominates the field: the WISC-III, the third revision of psychologist David Wechsler's classic 1949 test for children, which was modeled after Army intelligence tests developed during World War I.

Since the 1970s, says Kaufman, "the field has advanced in terms of incorporating new, more sophisticated methods of interpretation, and it has very much advanced in terms of statistics and methodological sophistication in development and construction of tests. But the field of practice has lagged woefully behind."

Nonetheless, people are itching for change, says Jack Naglieri, PhD, a psychologist at George Mason University who has spent the past two decades developing the CAS in collaboration with University of Alberta psychologist J.P. Das, PhD. Practitioners want tests that can help them design interventions that will actually improve children's learning; that can distinguish between children with different conditions, such as a learning disability or attention deficit disorder; and that will accurately measure the abilities of children from different linguistic and cultural backgrounds.

Naglieri's own test, the CAS, is based on the theories of Soviet neuropsychologist A.R. Luria, as is Kaufman's K-ABC. Unlike traditional intelligence tests, says Naglieri, the CAS helps teachers choose interventions for children with learning problems, identifies children with learning disabilities and attention deficit disorder and fairly assesses children from diverse backgrounds. Now, he says, the challenge is to convince people to give up the traditional scales, such as the WISC, with which they are most comfortable.

According to Nadeen Kaufman, that might not be easy to do. She believes that the practice of intelligence testing is divided between those with a neuropsychological bent, who have little interest in the subtleties of new quantitative tests, and those with an educational bent, who are increasingly shifting their interest away from intelligence and toward achievement. Neither group, in her opinion, is eager to adopt new intelligence tests.

For Naglieri, however, it is clear that there is still a great demand for intelligence tests that can help teachers better instruct children with learning problems. The challenge is convincing people that tests such as the CAS--which do not correlate highly with traditional tests--still measure something worth knowing. In fact, Naglieri believes that they measure something even more worth knowing than what the traditional tests measure. "I think we're at a really good point in our profession, where change can occur," he says, "and I think that what it's going to take is good data."

Pushing the envelope

The Kaufmans and Naglieri have worked within the testing community to effect change; their main concern is with the way tests are used, not with the basic philosophy of testing. But other reformers have launched more fundamental criticisms, ranging from "Emotional Intelligence" (Bantam Books, 1995), by Daniel Goleman, PhD, which suggested that "EI" can matter more than IQ (see article on page 52), to the multiple intelligences theory of Harvard University psychologist Howard Gardner, PhD, and the triarchic theory of successful intelligence of APA President Robert J. Sternberg, PhD, of Yale University. These very different theories have one thing in common: the assumption that traditional theories and tests fail to capture essential aspects of intelligence.

But would-be reformers face significant challenges in convincing the testing community that theories that sound great on paper--and may even work well in the laboratory--will fly in the classroom, says Nadeen Kaufman. "A lot of these scientists have not been able to operationalize their contributions in a meaningful way for practice," she explains.

In the early 1980s, for example, Gardner attacked the idea that there was a single, immutable intelligence, instead suggesting that there were at least seven distinct intelligences: linguistic, logical-mathematical, musical, bodily-kinesthetic, spatial, interpersonal and intrapersonal. (He has since added existential and naturalist intelligences.) But that formulation has had little impact on testing, in part because the kinds of quantitative factor-analytic studies that might validate the theory in the eyes of the testing community have never been conducted.

Sternberg, in contrast, has taken a more direct approach to changing the practice of testing. His Sternberg Triarchic Abilities Test (STAT) is a battery of multiple-choice questions that tap into the three independent aspects of intelligence--analytic, practical and creative--proposed in his triarchic theory.

Recently, Sternberg and his collaborators from around the United States completed the first phase of a College Board-sponsored Rainbow Project to put the triarchic theory into practice. The goal of the project was to enhance prediction of college success and increase equity among ethnic groups in college admissions. About 800 college students took the STAT along with performance-based measures of creativity and practical intelligence.

Sternberg and his collaborators found that triarchic measures predicted a significant portion of the variance in college grade point average (GPA), even after SAT scores and high school GPA had been accounted for. The test also produced smaller differences between ethnic groups than did the SAT. In the next phase of the project, the researchers will fine-tune the test and administer it to a much larger sample of students, with the ultimate goal of producing a test that could serve as a supplement to the SAT.

Questioning the test

Beyond the task of developing better theories and tests of intelligence lies a more fundamental question: Should we even be using intelligence tests in the first place?

In certain situations where intelligence tests are currently being used, the consensus answer appears to be "no." A recent report of the President's Commission on Excellence in Special Education (PCESE), for example, suggests that the use of intelligence tests to diagnose learning disabilities should be discontinued.

For decades, learning disabilities have been diagnosed using the "IQ-achievement discrepancy model," according to which children whose achievement scores are a standard deviation or more below their IQ scores are identified as learning disabled.

The problem with that model, says Patti Harrison, PhD, a professor of school psychology at the University of Alabama, is that the discrepancy doesn't tell you anything about what kind of intervention might help the child learn. Furthermore, the child's actual behavior in the classroom and at home is often a better indicator of a child's ability than an abstract intelligence test, so children might get educational services that are more appropriate to their needs if IQ tests were discouraged, she says.

Even staunch supporters of intelligence testing, such as Naglieri and the Kaufmans, believe that the IQ-achievement discrepancy model is flawed. But, unlike the PCESE, they don't see that as a reason for getting rid of intelligence tests altogether.

For them, the problem with the discrepancy model is that it is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the Wechsler scores, which were never intended to be used to as a single, summed number. So the criticism of the discrepancy model is correct, says Alan Kaufman, but it misses the real issue: whether or not intelligence tests, when properly administered and interpreted, can be useful.

"The movement that's trying to get rid of IQ tests is failing to understand that these tests are valid in the hands of a competent practitioner who can go beyond the numbers--or at least use the numbers to understand what makes the person tick, to integrate those test scores with the kind of child you're looking at, and to blend those behaviors with the scores to make useful recommendations," he says.

Intelligence tests help psychologists make recommendations about the kind of teaching that will benefit a child most, according to Ron Palomares, PhD, assistant executive director in the APA Practice Directorate's Office of Policy and Advocacy in the Schools. Psychologists are taught to assess patterns of performance on intelligence tests and to obtain clinical observations of the child during the testing session. That, he says, removes the focus from a single IQ score and allows for an assessment of the child as a whole, which can then be used to develop individualized teaching strategies.

Critics of intelligence testing often fail to consider that most of the alternatives are even more prone to problems of fairness and validity than the measures that are currently used, says APA President-elect Diane F. Halpern, PhD, of Claremont McKenna College.

"We will always need some way of making intelligent decisions about people," says Halpern. "We're not all the same; we have different skills and abilities. What's wrong is thinking of intelligence as a fixed, innate ability, instead of something that develops in a context."  http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb03/intelligent.aspx

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9 hours ago, CUBAREY said:

IQ tests are given widely and not just in the US and the west. 

 

Also, Krakalakachkn when first generation immigrants of southeast Asian descent are given the result is rather expected, they score like other southeast Asian that is the score significantly higher then any other group including whites. So exactly what agenda do people giving Asian immigrants have? Also IQ tests are given along side proficiency tests in most schools. It's a rather good way of determining which schools and communities may need special help in education.

 

I was referring to the first couple of decades after the IQ test was invented/became prevalent.  

 

As for the SE Asian question - there's no doubt in my mind that some cultures have stronger areas of intelligence than others.  There's also no doubt they would score far lower in some other aptitude tests.  They are also seen as "white" and "harmless" by Americans and are considered a "safe" race.  Which I think is pretty foolish but whatever.

 

My point is that IQ tests should not be considered the premiere test of intelligence or ability.  

 

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Who in America thinks of Southeast Asians as Whites? You are purposely and conveniently forgetting 150 years of history from the exclusion laws to the Internment of the Japanese Americans during the Second Wolrd War. And really anyone who has a problem with blacks, hispanics, jews, etc. does not cut Asians any slack.

 

 

 

I think that we do agree on at least one point. Whites and Asians do in fact perform better in IQ tests likely because such tests are geared to ferret out a certain type of intelligence which those groups excel in. Of course I think it's also quite clear that that type of intellingence is a very good indicator of doing well in a hihgly technalogical and complicated  modern society. Which at the end is in itself very important piece of information which goes to my former statement that certain types of complex technalogical societies are almost totally absent from subsaharan groupos which might be quite relevant in evaluating why and if certain societies will ever do well in modern complex  highly technological age societies (Here I am not talking about individuals, inidividual members of groups can vary, but can a majority subsaharan society actually create a working modern technalogically advanced nation? Or will attempts to create such be burdoned by a lack of the necessary (type) of intelligence?

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I am quite willing to admit that IQ tests have flaws and that they are imperfect barameters  of cognitive ability. However, the fact that IQ tests are routinely given around the world with most developed and given by locals also indicates that whatever their flaws they are useful tools in many scenerios and are not "culturally biased". 

Bold: on that we agree.

 

Italicized: Just because people around the world use/teach something, doesn't mean it's correct or accurate. 

 

It's like teaching Columbus in elementary School. Not only do we teach that he found america (he didn't) and that he was a great man (he wasn't) doesn't mean we should teach it that way, or that any of the stuff taught in grade school is even accurate (Why teach shit we have to unteach?). 

 

IQ tests are Inherently biased, they are inaccurate, and a horrible measure of intelligence.

 

IQ tests are like BMI. Statistically it's kind of accurate,  but a super athletic body builder, or a professional sports (NFL) player, can be considered morbidly obese by BMI standards when we both know someone that is 280 pounds with 4-6% body fat is healthier then someone who weighs 280 pounds and 90% body fat. BMI only calculates the ratio between height and weight. It disregards other metrics such as body fat %. (density)

We have no good way to test true intelligence. What you require is a universal test, that doesn't require language, reading, knowledge, can not be studied for in any way, (as that would obviously influence the score)

Basically you need a magic button that gives you a quantifiable number for intelligence... But that's a fools errand, You're trying to find some magical number that quantifies human intelligence.

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"Basically you need a magic button that gives you a quantifiable number for intelligence... But that's a fools errand, You're trying to find some magical number that quantifies human intelligence."

 

YKet  there is a need for IQ tests or at least aptitude tests. The original IQ tests were designed for a reason, at the start of the first world war it was known that the US was going to have to build a large a complex military organization and there was a need for a test that gave a clue as to how to assign people in as efficent a manner as possible that would utilize their given abilities. The tests imperfect, they still are but then and now they serve a valid purpose. It's one thing to say that an IQ test is imperfect and inherently has certain limitations and another to abandon their use simply because they are imperfect and they reveal uncomfortable truths.

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"

It's like teaching Columbus in elementary School. Not only do we teach that he found america (he didn't) and that he was a great man (he wasn't) doesn't mean we should teach it that way, or that any of the stuff taught in grade school is even accurate (Why teach shit we have to unteach?). "

 

Columbus "discovered" America by accident. Where there people here before 1492,, sure. Did other Europeans land on the Americas prior to that date, again yes. However, Columbus if you will is short for the historical events that began with his voyages and date the continuous interactions between Europeans and native peoples and the later conquest of the hemisphire by Europeans. Events that were world changing and not just for the paricipants of the events. So yes we should teach about Columbus. Now you seem to have a problem with how history is taught but frankly we teach things to 9 and 10 year olds in simplistic manner and then as they age we reteach the same events with ever greater complexity and shades of gray.

 

As to whether Columbus was a "great man" , that depends on what you mean by "great man". If you mean a man who had a deep and lasting impact on history then Columbus was a great man. If you mean was he a moral man. That's a much more complicated matter. Personally he attempted to keep the treaties he made with indiginous people's but was at best only partially succesful even in that. He did ashure in an era that saw the destruction of every major indiginous society in the hemisphire but he would have been personally appalled at that outcome. He was however a man of his era and held the values of real men of said era. You can not neither judge the man or his acts by the moral standards of 21st century SJW's and decry as immoral all those who do not pass such a test as that would mean that there would be less then a handful of men in the entirety of history that would be called moral (Jesus, Krishna, Buddha are the only three that of the top of my head might qualify).

 

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"IQ tests are like BMI. Statistically it's kind of accurate,  but a super athletic body builder, or a professional sports (NFL) player, can be considered morbidly obese by BMI standards when we both know someone that is 280 pounds with 4-6% body fat is healthier then someone who weighs 280 pounds and 90% body fat. "

 

So sure there are always exception and limitations to every test. The fact that the BMI is generally accurate is important and why it's used. Sure some individuals may be misjudged, but if you get a result that the population as a whole is generally Healthy or unhealthy by the BMI test such results are not only important but will tell you much about the need to stress physical exercise and a healthy diet or whether attention and resources should be better spent elsewhere.

 

In the same vain, IQ tests have certain limitations, and should be used conservatively when dealing with individual rights but when they broadly reflect wide differences of cognitive abilities among groups such truths should not be ignored simply because they are uncomfortable t the very least the should be acknowledged in or for reasonable policies that of a hope of succes can be drafted.

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Columbus "discovered" America by accident. Where there people here before 1492,, sure. Did other Europeans land on the Americas prior to that date, again yes. However, Columbus if you will is short for the historical events that began with his voyages and date the continuous interactions between Europeans and native peoples and the later conquest of the hemisphire by Europeans. 

Except for the fact that Columbus never actually set foot on the North American Continent. Do you history bro?

 

The whole story of Columbus as not a joke but a hero, was made up propaganda to make American-Italians more American. :wink:

 

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Now you seem to have a problem with how history is taught but frankly we teach things to 9 and 10 year olds in simplistic manner and then as they age we reteach the same events with ever greater complexity and shades of gray.

 

You can teach simplified history and still remain true without having to reteach entire segments of history because the truth is uncomfortable for some adults.

 

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So sure there are always exception and limitations to every test. The fact that the BMI is generally accurate is important and why it's used. Sure some individuals may be misjudged, but if you get a result that the population as a whole is generally Healthy or unhealthy by the BMI test such results are not only important but will tell you much about the need to stress physical exercise and a healthy diet or whether attention and resources should be better spent elsewhere.

You realize, BMI only exists because of Insurance companies and statistics? And Statistics are only good when your dealing with macro generalizations of a given sample size, as they are horrible at defining the individual in said sample size.

 

Pretty much anyone in the know (in the health care industry/fitness industry) knows that BMI is a flawed system. Nurses/Doctors will often look at a patients chart and laugh and say "Well according to this, you are morbidly obese" when dealing with an Athlete. Clearly a fat patient, those same doctors/nurses will seriously inform the patient that they are obese...  Generally it doesn't take looking at the chart to figure out if someone is morbidly obese or not.
They basically only really use it because it's something their accountants superiors require them to $$$, and to statistically claim they are getting america more fit. (Which will horribly backfire, if they become morbidly obese fit.!)

IQ tests are similar.

 

They are constantly trying to devise new ways to test IQ, because every system is inherently flawed at figuring out how smart someone is.

perfect test wouldn't care where you live, how you grew up, or whether you can read/write, nor have any formal education.

An Intelligence test that can be taken and accurately measure how intelligent someone is regardless of all that, is infinitely more accurate, then a test that caters to rich, highly educated countries and then pitting those same questions to poor underdeveloped, low educated countries.

 

Hell, you even cite that middle eastern countries are significantly dumber then western nations, even though historically, the middle east was quite literally a thousand years more advanced in mathematics then the west until 800 years ago!

Edited by SinisterDeath

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"Except for the fact that Columbus never actually set foot on the North American Continent. Do you history bro?"

 

Do you know geography bro?

 

Columbus is credited with "dscovering the Americas (the western hemisphire) not the United States. In his voyages he discovered a large portion of the Carribbean islands and sailed along a decent portion of the Atlantic side of South America. Further, just a little clue, Columbus since he circumnavigated Cuba almost certainly saw if not sailed along a portion on what we know to be the Florida Peninsula.

 

 

"The whole story of Columbus as not a joke but a hero, was made up propaganda to make American-Italians more American. :wink:"

 

Except of course that Columbus is also taught to be a rather significant historical figure in Latin America and since the Italian population of Latin America (except for Argentina and possibly Venezuela) is misniscule you can hardly attribute his inclusion in their history books as an effort to make non-existant Italian immigrants more Latin American.

 

 

"An Intelligence test that can be taken and accurately measure how intelligent someone is regardless of all that, is infinitely more accurate, then a test that caters to rich, highly educated countries and then pitting those same questions to poor underdeveloped, low educated countries."

 

Except of course that is not what is done. IQ tests in third world countries are developed by and for locals. Those studies that have taken a look at international IQ's have not given inhabitants of third world countries the IQ tests which are given in the US. They take the test results of the locally devised and given tests.

 

As I have said modern IQ's do emphasize the type of intelligence necessary to do well in highly educated techanlocially advanced societies. That third world types do rather poorly on this tests instead of showing that the tests are biased and the results therefore tainted instead highlight the fact that in those regions other types of intelligence are more prevalent.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, CUBAREY said:

"Except for the fact that Columbus never actually set foot on the North American Continent. Do you history bro?"

 

Do you know geography bro?

Yea, and probably know it better then you know your history.

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Except of course that is not what is done. IQ tests in third world countries are developed by and for locals. Those studies that have taken a look at international IQ's have not given inhabitants of third world countries the IQ tests which are given in the US. They take the test results of the locally devised and given tests.

 

Tests that originated from western civilizations.

Localizing them doesn't solve any of the inherent issues with the test.

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As I have said modern IQ's do emphasize the type of intelligence necessary to do well in highly educated techanlocially advanced societies. That third world types do rather poorly on this tests instead of showing that the tests are biased and the results therefore tainted instead highlight the fact that in those regions other types of intelligence are more prevalent.  

You call it an uncomfortable truth that those people are dumber than whites and Asians, yet you can't seem to find comfort in the idea that human inteligence can't be quantified in numbers.

 

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Except of course that Columbus is also taught to be a rather significant historical figure in Latin America and since the Italian population of Latin America (except for Argentina and possibly Venezuela) is misniscule you can hardly attribute his inclusion in their history books as an effort to make non-existant Italian immigrants more Latin American.

If Latin america teaches america's version of the events, then I'd say that's american western propaganda work at it's finest. The fact that he whole sale slaughtered natives in search for gold... 

Course the way this thread is going you probably think George Washington actually chopped down a cherry tree because he couldn't tell a lie.

Edited by SinisterDeath

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The fact that he whole sale slaughtered natives in search for gold...

 

 

Actually he did not. Some of his men did. If you actually knew the history you would know that his downfall as Governor General was orchestrated by those who did in fact attempt to gather gold at all costs, a policy Columbus himself  believed both shortsighted  and ineffective.

 

 

 

"

Tests that originated from western civilizations.

Localizing them doesn't solve any of the inherent issues with the test."

 

Would think that the claim that a test is "culturally biased" could easily be adrresssed by locales who both know the science and their own culture.

 

 

"yet you can't seem to find comfort in the idea that human intelligence can't be quantified in numbers."

 

 

 

Because to a great extent it can. It amazes me that libtards decry tests as Western biased and anti-minority when the group that does best in such tests are southeast Asians.  

 

Yea, and probably know it better then you know your history.

 

You obviously know neither by the the responses in this thread .

Edited by CUBAREY

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someone should probably separate this entire discussion into a new thread 

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"If Latin america teaches america's version of the events, then I'd say that's american western propaganda work at it's finest. "

 

That is rather idiotic statement.  First since Columbus had a much more direct impact on many Latin Countries they are quite aware of both Columbus as a person and as a figure that whose efforts began a historical epoch that profound impact on the region. And further and more generally, are you somehow confused? The vast majority of Latin Societies perceive themselves to be "western", direct inheriters of Christianity, European culture and western thought.

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Sorry for barging in in the middle of an ongoing discussion. But Cubarey, your main problem seems to be that you don't realize those tests would only be "working" in a controlled environment, where the subjects have the same knowledge, received the same education, etc. 

 

You can say that "they get the same results when they take these tests in non-Western countries" - well, their education system is completely different. The fact that people from, let's say, rural Zambia do bad on an IQ test, doesn't mean Africans are stupid. It means that 1) a lot of them didn't recieve the same level of education as in certain Western countries and 2) their system of learning is wired differently. If a white person in rural Zambia does great on the same test - that person probably did not live all their life there in a low-income/farming family, go to the same schools, have the same socioeconomic background etc. Thus the difference becomes irrelevant. 

 

IQ only works in a "perfect" world where everyone starts out the same. As long as they don't, the only thing it really measures is your level of education and/or understanding of logical concepts as you've been taught.

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OlwenaSedai your explaination does not take into account fact that the supposedly Biased IQ tests significantly show that East Asians and not whites are at the top of the pecking order. Moreover, these results remain even though many Southeast Asians are comparatively poor. Now how is a test culturally biased when it's results consistently show that Southeas Asians have in general IQ's 5-10 points above European whites?

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47 minutes ago, CUBAREY said:

OlwenaSedai your explaination does not take into account fact that the supposedly Biased IQ tests significantly show that East Asians and not whites are at the top of the pecking order. Moreover, these results remain even though many Southeast Asians are comparatively poor. Now how is a test culturally biased when it's results consistently show that Southeas Asians have in general IQ's 5-10 points above European whites?

They have a more math-focused education system, all the way from elementary. Is their education level taken into account? It is becoming rare these days to find someone who never ever went to school.

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"They have a more math-focused education system, all the way from elementary. Is their education level taken into account? It is becoming rare these days to find someone who never ever went to school."

 

Such things actually are taken into account. Comparing apples to apples, poor rural people whether, Southeast Asian, White European, Subsharan African or Latin America the IQ differences persist. Rural, poor chinese from the hinterland do not enjoy the benefits of the expanded educational oppertunities available to their more urban richer cousins, still their scores persistlenty are higher then other groups.

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