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What is your LEAST favorite part about the books? (no major spoilers)

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55 minutes ago, OlwenaSedai said:

I am on book 12 now, and I have to say, I don't really see what everyone hates about book 7-11. A lot of important things happen in those books: Egwene becoming Amyrlin, the battles against the Seanchan really kicking off, the cleanse of the taint, the weather thing... I didn't really find them slowpaced. The prologue to 12 was maybe the worst this far for me :P (also because transitioning to Sanderson's writing did take some time). 

 

Sure, there were parts that could've been cut in all those books, but that's true of all the books. 

 

I'm listening to COT on audiobook right now. When I first read it, after more than a year of waiting for it to come out, I thought it was the worst book of the series. Literally nothing happened.

 

Now, however, I'm enjoying it very much. I no longer feel the urge to find out what happened to the main characters, and can now enjoy all the interactions with the secondary characters.

 

The prologue to COT is literally longer than the first 3 chapters, but that was okay. Rodel Ituralde is awesome!

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On 2018. január 10. at 6:00 PM, jack of shadows said:

@szilard,

"jordan fell in love with a certain heroine and a certain hero.."

 

*grinning*

would you care to elaborate who are the hero and heroine robert jordan

fell in love with?

 

No, :laugh: I have to stay calm. *deep breaths after deep breaths* 

 

In short the plotlines of El and PerrinFaile (or rather FAILEperrin) are tiresome and unnecessary.

 

20 hours ago, OlwenaSedai said:

I am on book 12 now, and I have to say, I don't really see what everyone hates about book 7-11. A lot of important things happen in those books: Egwene becoming Amyrlin, the battles against the Seanchan really kicking off, the cleanse of the taint, the weather thing... I didn't really find them slowpaced. The prologue to 12 was maybe the worst this far for me :P (also because transitioning to Sanderson's writing did take some time). 

 

Sure, there were parts that could've been cut in all those books, but that's true of all the books. 

 

TSR was the first slow book, if you compare it with the later books...   (Many) people come for action, and not for endless lists of names, or plots which go into nowhere. Or meaningful interaction between the characters.

 

Not to mention the urging feeling in the first books: the seals, the seals!!! How many are them still stand??? Wait a minute, wait a minute... the seals DO NOT matter at all, so this whole pressing sense of 'the world will end in a minute!' evaporates into nothing

 

Or "the weather thing": this plotline is just terrible. Jordan tries to reach into so many directions that everything slips through his fingers; you could cut 90% of it. The ultimate goal was to keep El in a different place. That's it. And he gives us a very interseting character, Talaan, but does he use her? No. I do not expect Tuon level high quality plotlines, but please, Mr Jordan, do not give us terrible written sections.

 

See Ch 32 in ACOS: the first part is very good, the second good, the third one is terrible, because RJ does not find their voices. It is so badly written that sometimes I don't think that was written by Jordan. And he needs almost three books to get this plotline to its feet. Things like that never happened in earlier books! 

 

Look, the more you read the series, the more you see its faults. And as solarz says in another thread (I'm twisting their words a little bit), readers want to follow the original characters, the heroes, not to bog down with actor n732. Of course, he had no other choice because he ran out of plotlines. But, but, if you run out of plotlines, maybe you should end your story. Jordan had deadlines, and maybe he was too proud, or too smart pushing deadlines away, because he knew that his writing will not get better, and readers buy his books constantly (he was 'the' epic fantasy at certain point), so it really hard to stop. I had similar experience in a very small scale, one day maybe I will share it.

 

And if you look at other writers, you can see that now everybody builds megaworlds with 20-30-40 books. And they do not write what they want to write, they write what the market wants. If you try something new and the readers do not want it, they have to return their original series, expanding it with more volumes. And, as we know it, there is no ending, you could continue anything.

 

I do not care about Erikson (or his book), but his honest post is worth to quote (and his sales were always low):

 

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I've made a point of never dissembling to my readers so why start now? The reasons for this decision (delaying Walk in Shadow) are varied: the basic situation is as follows. For reasons unknown to me, my agent or my publishers, DoD and FoL have tanked in terms of sales. I wasn't even aware of that until we started marketing the First Contact novel, RKH, but when the details came out it took the wind out of my sails (putting it mildly). Now, if it was a matter of the style I employed for the Kharkanas trilogy turning readers off, then the sales of FoD should have been decent, only to then fall off for FoL. But that wasn't the case. Strangely, the Book of the Fallen series remains strong in terms of sales. Was it because it was a prequel? Possibly. Did FoD come too soon after TCG? Maybe. Or is there some kind of reader-fatigue going on? Could be. One theory I've been considering is a more general wariness among fantasy fans regarding trilogies and series -- having been burned by other authors waiting for books, are readers just holding back until the trilogy is done, before buying in? But then, Dancer's Lament sold brilliantly (and it too is a prequel). Anyway, the upshot is, given what we perceive as considerable enthusiasm for the Karsa trilogy, we decided to jump right in. The story picks up four or five years after the ten book series, so there'll be plenty of room to explore the fall-out, and room for favourite characters to make an appearance beyond Karsa himself. I do remain committed to writing Walk in Shadow and humbly apologize for you (few?) readers eagerly awaiting that novel.

 

Now the whole market is totally different from what it was 10-15-20 yeras ago.

 

One more thing to close this post: it is so easy to say that books after LOC are subpar. I say it so easily too. But nobody mention that writing even one, ONE good epic fantasy book is almost impossible task.  And Jordan wrote 5 consecutive books on excellent quality. FIVE excellent books. Not a good one, five excellent ones. And we should be thankful for that but we are greedy, we want more.

 

 

 

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1+ new reply    Go to first new post

 

This should be in the form of +1, don't you think? And where is my wink emoticon?

 

 

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22 hours ago, szilard said:

TSR was the first slow book, if you compare it with the later books...   (Many) people come for action, and not for endless lists of names, or plots which go into nowhere. Or meaningful interaction between the characters.

 

Rather than saying TSR was the first slow book, I think it's more accurate to say that the first 3 books were very frantically paced. TSR wasn't really slow for a book that is part of a 14-book series, but the first 3 books were much more stand-alone paced. Hell, you can also say TSR is the first book where Rand doesn't kill Baalzamon at the end, LOL!

 

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Look, the more you read the series, the more you see its faults. And as solarz says in another thread (I'm twisting their words a little bit), readers want to follow the original characters, the heroes, not to bog down with actor n732.

 

Now I don't remember saying that, though I could have in certain contexts. Still, I'm of the firm belief that a good author writes for himself, not for his readers. People have different tastes, even the same person will enjoy different things at different points in his life. The way I enjoyed WOT when I read it as a teenager is vastly different from when I read it now as a 30-something.

 

 

Quote

 

One more thing to close this post: it is so easy to say that books after LOC are subpar. I say it so easily too. But nobody mention that writing even one, ONE good epic fantasy book is almost impossible task.  And Jordan wrote 5 consecutive books on excellent quality. FIVE excellent books. Not a good one, five excellent ones. And we should be thankful for that but we are greedy, we want more.

 

 

This I agree with. The WOT series has amazing books and books that are weaker by comparison. Personally, I feel that even the weaker books are enjoyable if taken in context with the rest of the series. Like any journey, there are ups and downs, and it's the downs that make us enjoy the ups even more.

Edited by solarz

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1 hour ago, solarz said:

 

Rather than saying TSR was the first slow book, I think it's more accurate to say that the first 3 books were very frantically paced. TSR wasn't really slow for a book that is part of a 14-book series, but the first 3 books were much more stand-alone paced.

 

To the readers who bought the first trilogy (because WOT is a series of trilogies) in the beginning of the nineties it was extremely slow. We talked about many times in the old Usenet newsgroup. Of course, now we all look at TSR with a different eye.
 

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Now I don't remember saying that, though I could have in certain contexts.

 

 

I wrote "I'm twisting your words" so we'd have a context, but it does not matter at all.

 

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Personally, I feel that even the weaker books are enjoyable if taken in context with the rest of the series.

 

That's the point! Jordan should have separated the main series/happenings from the rest, thus the readers are not forced to do mental gymnatics to keep WOT in shape. At least we did not go to the route à la HP, where many extremely long fanfictions have basically rewritten the whole story keeping the names only.

 

As József Attila says: "I am angry for and not against you" - because it is heartbreaking to see what could have achieved Jordan with WOT, despite being the uncrowned king of epic fantasy.

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I always have said, the biggest issue with the weaker books was the amount of time you had to wait for them.  You wait two years and you get a book that doesn't advance the plot much and then two years later it seems like Perin is still hunting for Faile.  Sort of frustrates you.

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On 1/12/2018 at 1:17 PM, szilard said:

 

To the readers who bought the first trilogy (because WOT is a series of trilogies) in the beginning of the nineties it was extremely slow. We talked about many times in the old Usenet newsgroup. Of course, now we all look at TSR with a different eye.

 

I only started reading WOT in 1999, so I probably have a different perspective. :)

 

Before I read WOT, the most representative fantasy series I've read was probably Dragonlance.

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As with all authors RJ had some "isms" that bother me. In fact, I'd say that these small flaws are all that keep me from declaring WOT a genuinely great work of literature.

 

+ Ending sentences with the word "though".

+ Obsession with describing "bosoms" (I get what he's doing here, reinforcing that some characters come from extremely conservative backgrounds, but it does get ridiculous/distracting after a while).

+ "Said" is all that needs to be said when  a character says something! As a novelist I know this gets tedious but I believe in never, ever, ever using anything but "said". RJ sometimes lapsed and had characters "husk" or "lisp" or "huff" or whatever. It really does mar the overall incredible quality of the prose.

+ Corporal punishment -- again I get where he's coming from, this has an historical precedent and wasn't really heard of before in fantasy unless it had a BDSM element (like the Gor books) but it gets old fast and does come across the wrong way to a lot of readers.

+ I get that the characters are young and inexperienced with romantic relationships, but many of the flirtation scenes were too cutesy-pie for me.

 

Apart from that I don't have many criticisms of the content in the books. I wasn't bothered by braid-tugging (a character trait) skirt smoothing (people do this to their clothes in real life all the time when they sit down), I enjoyed all the Aes Sedai intrigue and I didn't mind when major characters took a back seat for extended lengths of story (hey, this is an epic!), I also didn't mind when it "slowed down" -- personally, I thought the prose jumped up significantly in quality starting with Book 7 and got stronger with each succeeding volume, so the "slow down" wasn't painful, there was much pleasure in the simple act of reading his prose. 

 

I have not read the BS volumes yet so I can't comment on them (I know, I know...). I'm hoping to get to them this year. I read EotW in 1990, never followed up, then (starting in 2013, I think) read New Spring through Knife of Dreams, listened to the audio-books, re-read them with the Companion, and I guess I'm ready to rip myself away from the creator . . . . sigh.

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