Faroresdragn

What is your LEAST favorite part about the books? (no major spoilers)

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I've often defended the women in the books though I've gotten tired of bickering with people who see it differently. and those people are often men.

 

when eotw came out, women were mostly invisible in sci fi fantasy, or flawless goddesses a la Tolkien. there were few "real" or politically powerful women, and even when there were (like queen riders in

mccaffrey books) they were so often subject to knee jerk sexism in world that it was difficult to read.

 

so when wot came out the other women I knew who read this kind of stuff loved it. this was before I had any inkling that people discussed this stuff anonymously on the Internet.

 

it wasn't until I discovered wot stuff on the Internet that I encountered what seemed like

mostly very young men voicing actual hatred of fictional characters because they behaved in..,, a much less sexist way than most men behave irl.

 

so consider this me defending the female characterizations and dropping it because the

need to defend what are actually, IMO, quite decent characters is already annoying me, and I hate being annoyed on the internet.

 

but yeah, lots of people love them, lots of those people are women, and

lots of the people that have issues are not women. not all but lots and lots. afaict from anonymous internet posts.

 

YESSSSS yes yes yes, to everything you said!

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And statistics be damned. Im still going to gripe about Saerin and Sarine, because even if its statistically probable thered be some people with similar names who have to deal with eachother, Jordan obviously has complete control over everything. So him choosing to have two sisters with anagram names deal with eachother all the time is just a dick move, and you really cant convince me otherwise.

 

And ive never heard anyone defend the women in the books before. I thought he portrayed alot of them as overly conceited and somewhat incompetent a lot of the time. And I really didnt like how quickly they would just fall in love with men all of a sudden, and then spend 3 books trying to deny it to themselves, before melting in their arms. He just made it seem like even the strongest, most independent women just melt helplessly when it comes to being attracted to a man. I know this is fantasy, but come on. When you have like 8 different romantic relationships, 6 to 7 of them shouldnt play out the same way.

 

This first paragraph has me chuckling :p

 

For the second... actually I think a perfect example is how Nynaeve fell quickly for Lan, right? But I can TOTALLY understand this as a woman. He was obviously the man of her dreams and she wanted some of that LOL

As for a lady like Elayne, though... I hate her character, BUT Rand is ta'veren so I can understand it only from this point of view. Min knew from her vision she would be with him, and that was that. With Rand the only romance I really enjoyed for a time was with Aviendha, because she was damn awesome, and so were their interactions.

I'm not sure I can think of others who" fell in love with men all of a sudden"...

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One of the major gripes from these books is that I only got one visit to an Ogier groove. Also I never got to see the Great Stump, only its aftermath. What a huge shame. Also Demandred's activies sprinkled through the middle books would for me had been real great.

Edited by wotfan4472

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I'm not sure I can think of others who" fell in love with men all of a sudden"...

 

Egwene, when she has virtually no interaction with Gawyn, gets laid in his dream, and then hes the love of her life when they meet like the next day. I guess he just wanted egwene to have a love interest.

 

Also Rand and Elayne. He literally met Elayne one time for like 15 minutes when he fell over the garden wall in EotW, and then when he met her again in the Stone (they were both in Falme at the same time but i cant remember if they met), theyre suddenly love birds stealing kisses, and this is after Elayne has already been talking about Rand incessantly, and was ecstatic that Egwene surrendered any claims to him while they were in the white tower. they met for 15 minutes. The rest of Elaynes horrible character is about how she has to try and be strong and composed to be a good queen and follow in her mothers footsteps. And I really hope that Rand's taveren powers werent used to bend the fabric of reality around him so that he could get laid. Cause that would be pretty awesome lame.

 

Lan and Nynaeve were pretty quick too, but for some reason I believed that more. They were both strong people, although Nynaeve was aggressive and Lan was quiet. As soon as Nyneave was proud of her tracking skills in EotW, and then Lan managed to sneak up on her, and they were both mutually impressed with their skills, I knew they were gonna hook up at some point. plus who else would be able to put up with Nynaeve. I guess I get it from Nynaeves side, but i dont really get it from Lans side, so I guess that doesnt really help my argument lol.

 

I think I was thinking less of actually falling in love, and the being in love. Like all women of all personalities reacted to being in love the same way (besides avihenda and Faile). Min, Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene, Theres all times where theyre doing important or unrelated things and he describes them as having to push off sexual or otherwise romanic thoughts about their men, and then angrily insist that they wont let Rand/Gawyn/Lan interfere with their work or make them act like fools. The guys obviously have thoughts of their significant women all the time, but it seems to make them be better. taking more caution, doing more heroic things, making the tough sacrifices. The way love changed peoples lives was it made men into bigger badasses, and made women have to fight off weird thoughts and try to deny they were in love at all unless they were behind closed doors. At least thats what I thought I picked up

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I'm not sure I can think of others who" fell in love with men all of a sudden"...

 

Egwene, when she has virtually no interaction with Gawyn, gets laid in his dream, and then hes the love of her life when they meet like the next day. I guess he just wanted egwene to have a love interest.

 

Also Rand and Elayne. He literally met Elayne one time for like 15 minutes when he fell over the garden wall in EotW, and then when he met her again in the Stone (they were both in Falme at the same time but i cant remember if they met), theyre suddenly love birds stealing kisses, and this is after Elayne has already been talking about Rand incessantly, and was ecstatic that Egwene surrendered any claims to him while they were in the white tower. they met for 15 minutes. The rest of Elaynes horrible character is about how she has to try and be strong and composed to be a good queen and follow in her mothers footsteps. And I really hope that Rand's taveren powers werent used to bend the fabric of reality around him so that he could get laid. Cause that would be pretty awesome lame.

 

Lan and Nynaeve were pretty quick too, but for some reason I believed that more. They were both strong people, although Nynaeve was aggressive and Lan was quiet. As soon as Nyneave was proud of her tracking skills in EotW, and then Lan managed to sneak up on her, and they were both mutually impressed with their skills, I knew they were gonna hook up at some point. plus who else would be able to put up with Nynaeve. I guess I get it from Nynaeves side, but i dont really get it from Lans side, so I guess that doesnt really help my argument lol.

 

I think I was thinking less of actually falling in love, and the being in love. Like all women of all personalities reacted to being in love the same way (besides avihenda and Faile). Min, Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene, Theres all times where theyre doing important or unrelated things and he describes them as having to push off sexual or otherwise romanic thoughts about their men, and then angrily insist that they wont let Rand/Gawyn/Lan interfere with their work or make them act like fools. The guys obviously have thoughts of their significant women all the time, but it seems to make them be better. taking more caution, doing more heroic things, making the tough sacrifices. The way love changed peoples lives was it made men into bigger badasses, and made women have to fight off weird thoughts and try to deny they were in love at all unless they were behind closed doors. At least thats what I thought I picked up

 

Faroresdragn, from some of your other posts, I'm not sure if you've finished the series or not, so if you haven't don't keep reading.

 

 

don't forget Siuan, she completely falls into what you're describing

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The parts that irk me throughout the series are mostly covered already, but I'll go ahead and repeat them

 

1. How in the end of the series everyone keeps trying to stuff down your throat how important Aes Sedai are, when they really are just basic cannon fodder, like the ayyad, the dreadlords, and the ashaman, and Wise Ones. Throughout Egwenes POVs in the last few books, she goes on about how the shadow shouldn't have dared infiltrate the WT and so on. 

 

2. How BS overdoes the various things RJ hinted at in regards to Mat. Mostly I'm talking about how he blames the redarms for corrupting Olver, when it was really him. RJ implied this, but didn't make it nearly so blatant.

 

3. Elayne. Does anyone like her?

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This is pretty random but one of my least favorite parts was how Mat's killing Couladin was described in a flashback.

 

That could have been one of the most epic scenes in the whole series. It represented the end of a storyline that had been progressing for almost 2 books. And it's a huge win for Mat in general.

 

Instead it's like "Mat looked over at Couladin's head on a pike" or something, and then fill in the backstory from there. So we already know how it ended, there's no buildup or suspense. Just tell the story linearly please.

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For some of my own complaints:

- The Aes Sedai and the WT in general should have been handled better. As an organization they should have been more efficient and on a personal level, more humble and not so uppity.

- Anything having to do with Perrin and/or Faile. I seriously hate them both and find them completely useless to the ENTIRE storyline.

- Disappointed Rand let the Black Tower go on by itself, and gave so much power to men he barely knew regarding the BT.

- ELAYNE.

 

 

I think people forget that the White Tower was quite competent back in Book 2 and 3. Everything changed when Elaida usurped the Amyrlin Seat. Elaida was obviously incompetent, but the Rebels did not have good leadership either. At first they were led by a committee, then by Egwene and the Hall. Egwene might be better than Elaida, but she had her share of flaws, and much of her energy was devoted to fighting Romanda and Lelaine.

 

Obviously, when an organization is led by incompetent or ineffectual leaders, that organization will suffer. This is true of everyone, not just the Aes Sedai.

 

As for Perrin and Faile, I liked them very much. Too many fantasy romances focuses on the courtship, forgetting that marriage is only the beginning, not the end. Perrin and Faile shows what a newly married couple is like. IMO, considering the way the other romance plots are handled, Perrin and Faile easily have the best written relationship in the series.

 

Finally, Rand avoids the Black Tower because he was going mad. He was getting ever more paranoid and schizophrenic. Even though his reason tells him that he needs something like the Black Tower, his state of mind did not allow him the luxury of being a good leader figure to the Asha'man. This is one of the more realistic aspects of the series: the Hero cannot do everything! Sometimes, he just has to trust other people to handle things for him, and sometimes that trust is betrayed...

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ALso with the WT, you also have to remember each Ajah had their own agenda.  The companion really sheds light on some of this when you read about the ajahs and events that happened like the program where the Red Ajah went out and started gentling any man on the spot who might be able to channel.  They were told to stop and didn't and if I remember right murdered an amirlyn.  Now one has to remember the black ajah for awhile has been behind the scenes planting seeds here and there making sure there was always some divison in the tower.  Making sure Red and Blue were always opposed etc...

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ALso with the WT, you also have to remember each Ajah had their own agenda.  The companion really sheds light on some of this when you read about the ajahs and events that happened like the program where the Red Ajah went out and started gentling any man on the spot who might be able to channel.  They were told to stop and didn't and if I remember right murdered an amirlyn.  Now one has to remember the black ajah for awhile has been behind the scenes planting seeds here and there making sure there was always some divison in the tower.  Making sure Red and Blue were always opposed etc...

 

Yes, one of the most fascinating aspects of WOT history is that the White Tower is actually a "federation" of various groups of women who can channel. The Aes Sedai always present a united front, but in reality, the Ajahs are always in a state of uneasy cooperation.

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I'd have to say that one of the best and worst things about the story are the Aes Sedai.

 

The first one we meet is Moiriane, who's cool, competent, and completely dedicated to her cause. She's the good guy that's willing to do grey things in order for the Light to succeed against the dark. While she made her share of mistakes, she set's the tone for what I envision the ideal Aes Sedai should be.

 

Then as we meet more Aes Sedai and learn more about their culture things start to unravel. They politic, squable, manipulate, etc... They do this so much that in a very human way they become much less than they think they are and that they should be.

 

So... the parts that I least like about the series are the pages of mostly dull bickering between the various agendas of both the WT and the rebels. However, I also found their behavior very realistic in how large organizations tend to get bogged down.

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For the thousandth time, it would've never been finished if RJ lived, could site examples but don't want to spoil. It would gone the way of Ice & Fire. Biggest thing with Ice & Fire(I have another gripe but not today) and WOT is they spin out characters who get viewpoints at a prodigious rate. It shows the world true but did that character need to be there or could another character have done it. A few less characters and RJ maybe could have finished or Brandon have more to work with.

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For the thousandth time, I do wish that people would not imply that Robert Jordan was being dishonest about his openly stated desire to finish the WOT with A Memory of Light. He stated this multiple times after finishing  Knife of Dreams and while writing as much as he could before death removed RJ from this world. 

Edited by Vambram

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I don't think he was being dishonest, but RJ did want to add a lot, draw stuff out etc..  Perin/Faile rescue was a good example.  Sure had he lived he would of finished it but wouldn't surprise me if it had gone at least one extra book.

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I don't think he was being dishonest, but RJ did want to add a lot, draw stuff out etc..  Perin/Faile rescue was a good example.  Sure had he lived he would of finished it but wouldn't surprise me if it had gone at least one extra book.

 

Or three...! :)

 

I don't think RJ was being dishonest. He said that AMOL would be as long as it needed to be, which basically meant that he was going to write as much as he felt like.

 

Certainly, the 3 Sanderson books had to tie up a lot of plots in a hurry, which was good for those plots you didn't like, and bad for those you did.

 

Personally, I wouldn't have minded RJ going another 6 or 7 books. After all, I already stuck with 11, what's half-a-dozen more? :)

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So the title of book 21 could be the Last Battle is getting really close now =)

 

I think the only thing that would of sped up his wanting to finish the WOT would of been his wanting to start on the outrigger series, and his desire to do a couple of prequel books.  I know he has wanted to do a book on Tam finding Rand.

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I wasn't accusing RJ of dishonesty but I don't think was seeing further than he could write. There are several parts in TOM and AMOL that I could see taking several books if RJ did it. I think the main issue is that some people will always hate the Brandon books with a passion.

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I wasn't accusing RJ of dishonesty but I don't think was seeing further than he could write. There are several parts in TOM and AMOL that I could see taking several books if RJ did it. I think the main issue is that some people will always hate the Brandon books with a passion.

 

Nah, the Sanderson books were good, just not RJ-good.

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My least favourite part is where Rand doesn't even thinking of trying to convince his three super hot wives to consummate their marriage at the same time.

 

All four of them bonded and able to feel each other's emotions while three of them could have the heightened sensuality from holding the power - all going on at once. It would have been one of the greatest sensual experiences ever known to mankind. At least that's how I would have tried to sell it to my strong, wise, and beautiful young wives.

Edited by The Sixth Great Captain

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My least favourite part is where Rand doesn't even thinking of trying to convince his three super hot wives to consummate their marriage at the same time.

 

All four of them bonded and able to feel each other's emotions while three of them could have the heightened sensuality from holding the power - all going on at once. It would have been one of the greatest sensual experiences ever known to mankind. At least that's how I would have tried to sell it to my strong, wise, and beautiful young wives.

 

Considering how cringe-worthy Jordan's sex scenes were, that's probably a good thing.

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OP, I did not read your post (not to mention the thread) just did a quick scan but the 'no spoiler' stood out, so I will be spoiler-free). No offence, also very typical of me that after posting something I do not go back to a thread, so in the past I used to get very angry Theresa Mays in my box. I hope you got the typical, standard answers, but I'm offering my thoughts too.


I've been pondering your question for a long time, but you will get a weak ramble now. :laugh: (I will not touch upon the estate authorized fanfictions, because I'm still too young to die in a heart attack.)


I do not want to waste your time, therefore this is my short answer: Jordan set the bar too high. Way too high.


The longer version:

 

So, I've said that Jordan set the bar too high. Way too high. What does that mean? The worldbuilding, the plot, the characters etc, if you look WOT as one thing is still the best epic fantasy series. Martin came very close with the

first book of ASOIAF, but the filler he put into it (starting with book 2) became unbearable by book 3-4. Only skimmed book 5 for a few minutes, then I had to accept that for me ASOIAF is a trilogy for me, nothing more.

 

And while there were/are talented writers who possessed talent for a particular bit (worldbuilding, or characters, or plot etc) no one was able to knead all of their ingredients into such a high quality series as ours.

 

People often say that the quality dropped after the amazing first sixth book (of course, in our club there are at least 6-8 persons, who do not read beyond TDR, because they only believe in trilogies.) About the changes in quality after LOC: while there are filler chapters in the first six books, they never reach the almost undigestable mass until ACOS. I mean, many times we meet 4-6 consecutive filler chapters, filler plotlines..Everybody can see that sometimes RJ had no idea what to do with certain characters, or he has to stall certain arcs to reach certain goals etc. But you know what is the most interesting/saddest thing? If you put together ACOS and TPOD, then cut the filler (min. 100 000 words, but I'd cut rather 140-150 000 words), you will get the strongest book in the series. The strongest one.

I think that after his sickness, Jordan did not really care about WOT, he wanted to explore a new world (and thinking about two series at the same time is not an easy task), and who can blame him? Many things diverted/swayed the series: his sickness, the BWB, the prequel,and the lack of proper criticism (he was a big lurker, but the online communities came way too late to change the course). He only saw his mindbending success, his sales just growing and growing, so he thought that he's on the right path. And when he realized what happened, it was too late to turn back, he had to follow the path we call now Book 7-11. (Similar thing happened wit JKR, just mention a common place.)

 

On the other hand, if you accept that LOC is the real ending, then most of (your/our/my) problems will cease immediately.

 

Another points: putting the most popular heroes into the shadows, and putting hated ones into the limelight is a very bad idea; when the reader cares more about bad characters than good ones then you do something wrong; characters are getting to strong - I get it why it is a must to do this (see the whole concept of the series), but reading about (demi)gods is boring, Jordan fell in love with a certain heroine and a certain hero - again, this was a very bad idea; maybe writing a little more romance could have been useful; too many characters to keep up with (casual readers, who make 99.999% of the whole readership usually have no idea about anybody except the main heroes, despite being spoonfeed many times by Jordan's repetitive sentences) etcetcetc


And last but not least:  disrespecting Jordan's wishes was not cool. At least Harriet could hold writing more than 3 estate authorized fanfictions (TOR wanted way more books) - the NDA (non-disclosure agreement) about these

fanfictions will expire in a few years, so will know what happened between 2007 and 2013. If anyone will care about these things then...


One more thing: what really breaks my heart is the fate (or rather the state) of the WOT online communities. They collapsed so fast...

 

 

Hey, and you could share with us your opinion many months later! :smile:

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@szilard,

"jordan fell in love with a certain heroine and a certain hero.."

 

*grinning*

would you care to elaborate who are the hero and heroine robert jordan

fell in love with?

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I am on book 12 now, and I have to say, I don't really see what everyone hates about book 7-11. A lot of important things happen in those books: Egwene becoming Amyrlin, the battles against the Seanchan really kicking off, the cleanse of the taint, the weather thing... I didn't really find them slowpaced. The prologue to 12 was maybe the worst this far for me :P (also because transitioning to Sanderson's writing did take some time). 

 

Sure, there were parts that could've been cut in all those books, but that's true of all the books. 

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